Kiran Singh

Interview with Kiran Singh

00:00:03 SPEAKER_PSK

This is prabhdeep singh. Today is February 9th 2023. I’m interviewing for the first time Kiran Singh. This interview is taking place on my end in Madison, Wisconsin. The interview is sponsored by Jakara and is part of the “Storytelling and Settlement Through Sikh LGBTQIA+ Oral Histories” Project. The purpose of this project and this research is to document the lived experiences of Sikhs in the United States or from LGBTQIA+ backgrounds. We want to provide a more complete history of Sikhs, through interviews that ask LGBTQIA + Sikhs about their different experiences, how they understand themselves and their communities and how they make homes in the US. Unlike a job interview or survey, oral history interviews are all about you and your life. We can talk about anything you want and in any order. Do you have any questions before we get started today?

00:01:15 SPEAKER_KS

No

00:01:16 SPEAKER_PSK

Cool. So we’re going to start very open-ended and very broad. Wanting to get to know a little bit about— when you think about your experiences growing up, could you tell me a little bit about what comes to mind when you think about that period? Whether it’s stories, smells, relationships or anything that helps you describe what it was like growing up.

00:01:42 SPEAKER_KS

That’s a great question. When I think about my childhood in particular, I have a feeling of like, love and happiness and contentment. I was a pretty happy kid. I grew up on the East Coast with my mom, my dad, and my older sister for the most part. When I think of that time, I remember like when my parents would go to work, I would like grab their legs and like want them to stay home and I just like, always wanted to be like, around my family. I wished like everyone could be together all the time and I also was a pretty sensitive and emotional kid. Not in a way that I would like be, like, crying all the time, I was a pretty peaceful kid with not many tantrums or anything. Then, when I grew up more, education was emphasized a lot in my family because it was kind of like an unfulfilled dream of my parents and so they wanted to— they like immigrated to the United States in the 90s to be able to give their kids the opportunity to pursue education. They weren’t like super, like authoritarian with that. Like I think it just fostered, a genuine interest in academics within me and my sister. So I tried like really hard in school. Probably a little too hard. Like I was pulling all-nighters in high school and stuff and I look back I’m like that was a little too much– I was doing too much. But yeah. So I was a pretty high achiever, and now I’m trying to think about where to go with the rest of this question.

00:04:43 SPEAKER_PSK

What was it about school that made you want to be high achieving in it, do you think?

00:04:49 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah I think I was really like curious about everything. And also like I remember like when we were more little, like, we’d go to the library and like, bookstore a lot. And then I remember, we’d get like, or my mom would get us like these books that would like have activities to like prepare us for the next grade in the summer. I think they’re like summer, summer, reading activities or something like that. And I think, I was just always like curious. I didn’t have like one thing that I like wanted to be; I was like, “oh maybe I could be a lawyer or a dentist or like an actress.” I had like a lot of different dreams and was just curious about a lot of different subjects.

00:05:43 SPEAKER_PSK

You describe some folks, like your family members, that were— sounds like, they were very big part of your life. Being family-centered, maybe in some way? Were there other extended folks, whether blood-related or community-related that you were like that were part of your like normal life in some form?

00:06:06 SPEAKER_KS

Definitely. I had some childhood friends like through school and even like in my neighborhood. I remember like playing a lot outside as a kid with my neighbors. So, I think a part of the question was, like, what smells come to mind? Like, I think, like fresh grass comes to mind there. And, I was connected to some of my extended family. Like when I was really little I stayed in contact with— like I played like with my cousins and stuff too. My mom’s side of the family lives on the West Coast. So, living on the East Coast, I didn’t get to, I only got to like, be there during the summers. And I really treasured those times during the summers because I felt like, really happy there. And honestly like there, I never wanted to leave. [KS’s voice breaks]. But other than that, like, as I got older, we didn’t stay as like connected.

00:07:42 SPEAKER_PSK

Kiran, can you hear me? Can you hear me? I can hear you now. Sorry about— sorry I’m not sure when I lost you, but the last I heard you say was that it was difficult to say goodbye and you were starting to share some stuff about after that.

00:08:36 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah. So I wasn’t like, I wasn’t as close with my dad’s side of the family.

00:08:43 SPEAKER_PSK

Can you hear me? I hear you. If you’re not. Okay. Yeah. Sorry about that. I’m not sure what’s going on. I can try going off the video if that would be helpful and we can try that.

00:09:35 SPEAKER_KS

Sure. Would it help if I also went off video?

00:09:37 SPEAKER_PSK

Let’s try that for a minute and then we’ll come back and see if that fixes the issue or not. How about that? Sounds good. So you’re saying you were not as close to your dad’s side of the family.

00:09:56 SPEAKER_KS

Yes. And I also said that my family did have some like, family friends that they were close to that they met through like the Gurdwaara or just neighbors that they had that we stayed in contact with and that like I would like play with them growing up. But we there wasn’t like a huge Panjabi community where I grew up. Or, when I grew up, I think my parents made more Panjabi friends like once I was in high school. 

00:10:38 SPEAKER_PSK

And did you notice while you were pre-highschool that you were lacking or you didn’t have access to these Panjabi Community folks? Or is it something that you noticed later on after you had more access to them in high school and beyond?

00:11:10 SPEAKER_KS

In grade school, it felt tangibly different. There was one other Panjabi girl in my grade and the teachers would always mix up our names. So it was— it is something like I realized at the time. I did attend a Panjabi school before high school. And so that was like a way that I had some Sangat, but I ended up leaving the Panjabi school to focus more on like my classes and extracurriculars, and stuff once I got into high school. 

00:11:43 SPEAKER_PSK

I see. And then, as you started making these newer connections in high school and grade school and beyond, I mean, it sounds like there weren’t a lot, and your teachers really confusing names and things like that. But as you went further along, then there were more Panjabi folks in your circle, did you notice something changing or did it sort of feel the same in terms of your day-to-day life? Or like, how you made relationships or connections with other people?

00:12:22 SPEAKER_KS

I think in high school, it stayed the same. Just because a lot of the people, like my parents became friends with, when I was older, their kids had like, grown up with each other so I couldn’t really relate to or fit in with them.

00:13:16 SPEAKER_PSK

[this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] Thank you for sharing that. From what I understand, you said that you were able to make more connections or it wasn’t something that was like forefront of your experiences? Like you weren’t trying to make friends in the community? Or it was just something that was happening because there were more folks and you were just engaging with them more often?

00:14:41 SPEAKER_KS

I said that I didn’t really make a lot of new friends in the like Panjabi or Sikh community in high school. Just because a lot of the people who my parents became friends with their children had always liked been friends growing up. So I didn’t really feel like I could fit in with them, so I mostly hung out with my friends in high school who were mostly white. And I guess like fast forward to college. I think I did make more Panjabi and Sikh friends in college. Like by joining the Sikh Student Association and different Sikh programs.

00:15:40 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you for clarifying. Clearly the internet hopped out and dropped a few important words as you were telling your story. So, that helps me understand a little bit about, as you were trying to, you know, growing up from your early years, and into your high school and a little bit to your college years. And you’ve told me a little bit about— a little bit about the different communities or groups of friends that you engaged with. Would you say, if you were to tell me who are the friends that you found solace with? Or the community that you found support with as you or as you were making your way through college?

00:16:32 SPEAKER_KS

That’s a good question. I think, like in high school, I had a pretty solid group of friends but they were all— well, not all— but, for the most part they were white. I had a Pakistani friend and a “wasian” friend who was half Indian. But no one I could really talk about like Sikhi with. But, I did like find solace with those friends. Like I would say like I was pretty close with them in high school. And in college [cut off due to internet issues]

00:17:13 SPEAKER_PSK

Awesome, good to know. Where would you say that you were getting your information around Sikh or around Sikh history from? Was it family? Was it friends? Did you sort of seek it out on your own?

00:17:47 SPEAKER_KS

[this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] [And my college roommate] was dating a Panjabi Sikh, man. So she had like more knowledge than most other people. And there’s another friend from high school who I stayed in touch with throughout college. And he’s, he’s Afghani and he’s gay. So he had like some experience— or we could like relate on some of our experiences even though like we don’t come from the exact same culture. And then like third group of friends I made was, or it’s not really a group, but I did make a couple friends with people in our school’s SSA [Sikh Student Association]. And so that was nice as well because I didn’t have that a lot growing up.

00:18:55 SPEAKER_PSK

Got it. And did you, what kind of stories, or what kind of things stand out to you, in what you were learning from these different groups that you mentioned? And with respect to Sikhi or Sikh history or even Panjabiness?

00:19:19 SPEAKER_KS

Um, I think in high school and while growing up, I always felt like if I share things with someone who wasn’t from my culture they won’t ever fully understand me. But I think with my roommate that I mentioned, she taught me that I could still feel supported in some of the struggles I faced with, like, Panjabi society or like those Sikh communities, even if she didn’t come from those communities. And then with one of my friends that I made in SSA she like grew up in— or, she like had to go to boarding school in Panjab, and I think I learned a lot from her experience. I’m trying to think about like how to articulate what I’ve learned from her.

00:20:32 SPEAKER_PSK

Take your time.

00:20:34 SPEAKER_KS

But I think like she grew up, like I grew up more in a household like where the people in my immediate family, they cut their hair. We didn’t do the like, Panj Baaneeya [five prayers] everyday. We do go to the Gurdwaara when we can. And they helped, they encouraged me to learn more about Sikhi like through going to Panjabi school and like learning Gurmat sangeet [Sikh music tradition]. But I think it was different than my friends experience because her like she wasn’t allowed to like listen to music that wasn’t Gurbaani growing up. And like in her boarding school, she was more so like kind of forced to, you know, do the Baaneeya every morning. And I think from her experience, like I haven’t like really met anyone who grew up like that. So I think it opened my eyes to the diversity of experiences in the Sikh and Panjabi communities. And I think like a lot of, I think like Gurbaani emphasizes like the vastness of Ik Oankaar. And like dismantling structures of oppression. And like being mindful of our attachment to other people and things. And it just made me realize how like we’re replicating like a lot of those— I think like structures of control in our own like interpersonal relationships and our families at home and in like a lot of Sikh and Panjabi circles.

00:23:07 SPEAKER_PSK

Did you feel that you were— as you were learning this information, what did it feel like for you to have to really take in this information? It sounds like you are having to rethink a lot of things, as you were getting exposed to new information.

00:23:24 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah. I think in college like, when I grew up, I kind of like grew up with more like an idyllic view of Sikhi. I don’t know if that’s right word. But in the sense that like, oh, like, “We emphasize equality”, like, “We all are one.” And I think once I got into high school and I became more like— I was pretty passionate about like politics and stuff in high school like when it came to like U.S. politics. But when I learned more about Indian politics and took my first South Asian history class and talked to people with diverse experiences of growing up with Sikhi. I think it did feel like I had to like—. I just had like a lot of questions. And it made me feel like a little bit.

00:24:44 SPEAKER_PSK

Sorry. You said it made you feel a little bit?

00:24:46 SPEAKER_KS

Sorry. I was thinking [chuckles].

00:24:51 SPEAKER_PSK

I thought it was service. Continue! Continue thinking! You’re good.

00:24:57 SPEAKER_KS

I think it just made me like unsure how to, or just like in my identity as a Sikh. And like what does that mean to be a Sikh? It made me like question that a lot.

00:25:15 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you for sharing. As you were learning all this new information about Sikhi, Sikhs and Sikh history. Or just, you know, you said it was an idyllic view of Sikhi, which I think is the right word. How are you thinking about, or how had you thought about, your experiences, with gender or sexuality? Had those been— when did you start thinking about those things? Or start realizing that those were things that were relevant to your life experience?

00:25:58 SPEAKER_KS

Um, this is like another thing that just came to mind about the previous question, so I’ll say that first before I answer this question. But going off of how I had an idyllic view of Sikhi, I remember learning that, “Oh Sikhi or Sikh people don’t believe in caste,” or “caste doesn’t exist in Sikhi,” and like, all this stuff. But then, as I got older, I heard— I listened to Panjabi songs. There’s a lot of caste pride reflected in them. And also in my family environment, when I’d try to call casteism out there would be a lot of cognitive dissonance and like I guess conflating caste with culture. And that was another thing that also made me more aware of these— I guess, hypocrisies. And I struggled with reconciling that. And then to, I guess answer the question about when I like became— is this correct, like it was when I became aware of my gender?

00:27:43 SPEAKER_PSK

Or just experiences with gender? Yeah. Like you know, any, however you want to take that.

00:27:54 SPEAKER_KS

So growing up, I experienced being, like, a girl, and I didn’t really experience much like gender dysphoria with that label that was put on to me. And I think, you know, from watching like Bollywood movies or just like consuming media or just like the messages I had heard from my parents, or just like the relationships I had seen my family. Like, I’d also imagined myself being in a like, when I was little like a heterosexual relationship. Marrying a man, and living happily ever after. And I remember like in middle school and high school, I was always like, like, passionate about LGBT issues. And I was happy when, I think it was like in 2015, LGBT marriage was legalized in the United States. And at that time, like I’d still considered myself like heterosexual. But I did notice when I would talk about stuff around my parents, I feel like there was this discomfort with, I guess, like LGBT issues, or with talking about it.

I think like growing up my mom always. Like my mom has two daughters, like, me and my sister. And I think, like, in the community, in some of the Panjabi circles that she was in, some people would look down on that and be like, “Oh.” I think she told me that when I was born or something, some auntie asked like, “Oh, congrats on the new baby. Is it a boy or a girl?” And then my mom said it was a girl. And then the Auntie was like, “Oh, like hopefully, like you’ll have better luck next time,” or something to the effect of that. And like so, I did grow up with the idea that like, in a lot of Sikh and Panjabi communities, it’s more shameful to have a girl. Or like girls have to be more careful about what they do because it would reflect bad on the family. Like, this whole idea of izzat [honor/reputation]. Even though I probably couldn’t articulate that, it was izzat. I had those ideas in my head. But my mom always emphasized, “Oh, I’m like proud to have two daughters,” and, “I’m like so happy to have two daughters. And I think you guys can be just as strong and as smart as boys,” and all this stuff. So like thankfully in my own family, like I didn’t experience that discrimination. Also like I didn’t have a brother. So I didn’t have to be compared to the other gender.

But then, once I got into college, I think is when I started like questioning my sexuality. My roommate was bi and we talked a lot about gender and sexuality and I found myself relating to a lot of the things that she would talk about and questioning a lot of my preconceived notions about gender. And then I – but I never formally came out. Because whenever the thought would come into my mind that like, “Oh maybe I do. Maybe my attraction, like doesn’t to someone doesn’t hinge on their gender.” Something in my mind would be like, “Oh well like it doesn’t matter anyway because like your gonna have to like marry and settle down with a man.” So like, I just kind of told myself that. And then as I went through college, I took more classes about gender and in my master’s program, I took a couple graduate classes on women, gender and sexuality. And I think that in like just engaging with a lot of like text in feminist theory and queer theory, there was a lot more introspection about my relationship to gender and sexuality. And then, at the end of college, I started dating a longtime friend of mine. Who at the time, or like, when I met them, they used like he/him pronouns and considered a man. And then, once I started dating them, they were non-binary. And I think throughout our relationship, I think, like now she would identify as like non-binary and like transfeminine. So I think through being in that relationship, it has also like caused me to introspect a lot on my own identity as I grow with them in their gender journey.

00:34:34 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you. Thank you, for sharing all of that. That’s. You’re right, that is such a journey for you to have gone through. Sitting here and thinking about it, what comes to mind to you? You said you’re sitting with it, but how does it feel like to now have to hear your whole journey as so far?

00:34:58 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah. And I think it does feel strange to like verbalize it. Just because I don’t think I have before. Since I haven’t like quote-unquote come-out, I never really have to explain myself to anyone. I think— like yeah, that’s how— that’s how it feels.

00:35:28 SPEAKER_PSK

Makes a lot of sense. And you said that like, you haven’t come out. What does that mean in terms of being out in this case?

00:35:41 SPEAKER_KS

Actually, that’s a really great question because I think some people might consider me quote-unquote “out,” but I don’t, and I’m trying to figure out why that is. I think it’s because I can’t be open around my family or like all the spaces that I enter, and like, since I don’t feel comfortable with everyone knowing about how I identify then I am not “out.” But there are select friends who do— who do know. I don’t go around saying that I’m bi or pan or say anything at all about it just because I like. Yeah, I just don’t feel comfortable doing that. And I don’t feel super confident in how to label myself to the world.

00:37:09 SPEAKER_PSK

So you would say that— it sounds a little bit like, the way that you’re saying it, is that the idea of coming out. It’s not necessarily like a straightforward or linear experience. It sounds like it’s a little. How would you describe it instead?

00:37:32 SPEAKER_KS

When I grew up I’d watch YouTube videos of all these YouTubers, like, coming out, and in the thumbnail, they’d be looking down and it was, like, a huge event. And I think— I guess for me, it’s not really an event of me, like, posting somewhere saying, “By the way, I am queer.” It’s more of, like, sharing that side of me to the people who are— who I can trust with that. So I guess it’s more of an iterative process.

00:38:27 SPEAKER_PSK

That’s so wonderful to hear. It’s funny, kind of like YouTubers and their big announcements. I remember that was like a really popular thing. Do you feel— you described it as like, you know you didn’t think that coming out was like an event— iterative process. Did you feel pressure to come out? Whether because of these YouTube videos or because people were asking you to identify out loud? Or something like that.

00:39:41 SPEAKER_KS

I think the only times I felt pressured was maybe on a demographic form or something, or—. I’m sorry, I’m trying to think. Okay. So yeah, I do feel pressure now. I think when anyone asks about my dating life or my relationship that I’m currently in I do feel pressure to, like, come out to them. I feel like it’s hard to share. It’s like I can’t really share about [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] If I want to talk about my partner and use the correct pronouns and describe them the correct way, I would inadvertently be coming out. And I think that’s something that’s been a new experience in the past year or so. Before it could be something that no one really knows, but now, just by being in a queer relationship, I have to come out to people who I share that relationship with.

00:41:05 SPEAKER_PSK

That makes a lot of sense. You asked if that makes sense. So just so, you know, that makes a lot of sense. And I think it’s a— I think you’re also sharing something a little bit about like, you know, while it was a personal decision or a private decision for a little while, you were able to go about your life without having to name or come out, name your identity or come out in some way. But now because— in taking up more public space through a relationship, that other people sort of feel the need, or feel like they’re able to ask you these sorts of questions. Or to honor your partner, you feel like this is an important thing for you to do. Would you say that’s correct?

00:41:59 SPEAKER_KS

Yes, I’d say that’s correct. 

00:42:00 SPEAKER_PSK

And in that sense, you said a little bit earlier that, you know, you are still working through labels and things of that sort. If you had to— if you had to define something with queerness, how do you think you would define it right now in this moment? And is that something that would maybe speak to you and how you understand yourself?

[this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues]

00:43:36 SPEAKER_KS

Thank you for clarifying. So I said that I would define being queer as, like, a state of engaging with gender and sexuality in a way that’s not quote-unquote, the “norm” — the “norm” being being cisgendered and heterosexual. And I think this does describe this stage of life that I’m in because I’m not in a heterosexual relationship. I do consider myself cis, but I think, like the way I engage with gender is like outside of the societal norm. And I think I do go through life questioning a lot of, like, gender norms, whether those be around work, labor, marriage or, like, in interpersonal relationships.

00:45:03 SPEAKER_PSK

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And I really appreciate the definition that you used around queerness in helping to understand your experiences. I wonder it. Have you found like you mentioned a little bit earlier about like twitter threads and conversations that you see online? Do you feel like you’re connected to any community that is a queer, trans, LGBTQIA+? How have your experiences been trying to find that sort of community for yourself or make that community for yourself?

00:45:54 SPEAKER_KS

That’s a great question. I don’t really feel like super connected to the communities. Like in the acronym like LGBTQIA+. Like I don’t really feel like super, like, I fall into like any one community or like super connected to a certain community. But, I think some of the closest people in my life, one of my best friends is bi and then another one of them is gay and my partner is trans and lesbian. So I do feel connected to those communities through them.

I also like listen to a podcast hosted by two lesbian co-hosts. So, I guess that’s like a way that I can like feel part or not like part of the lesbian community, but like part of the queer community at large, just by engaging in the discourses that are going on. I don’t feel like super like, I’m part of any bi communities. Even though like I would technically probably be considered like bi or pan. Just because I feel like a lot of the bi discourse I see is like pretty cringe [mutual chuckles]. And I feel like a lot of it revolves around feeling like validated in one’s identity and not really like some like bi peoples’, some of their material realities in the world. I guess to elaborate on that. Like, I feel like I saw a lot of stuff about like, “Oh, I’m a bi girl and even though I’m in a hetero relationship, I’m still bi, and like, I’m queering my boyfriend by being a bi girl in this relationship.” And I just feel like a lot of that, I don’t know. I just feel like. Yeah, I feel like it mostly matters, like what— Sorry. I don’t know what I’m saying. Anyway, um, I just feel like a lot of that discourse has been cringe. So like I don’t really like engage in a lot of like discourse. But yeah, I do feel like affinity toward various groups.

00:48:59 SPEAKER_PSK

I mean, what you were saying makes complete sense to me. A lot of cringe-worthy conversations out there. But I really do appreciate, I think the phrasing you used, is that sometimes people— whatever communities they’re in— there was a little bit more interest in sort of affirming their identity as opposed to the way that people experience their lived realities. And obviously they’re connected. But it sounds like your in your experience, there’s something significant to the the way that one lives, their life. And not just the way that they identify in this isolated way. How do you think you came to notice that?

00:49:58 SPEAKER_KS

Sorry, can you repeat the question, please? 

00:49:59 SPEAKER_PSK

[this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] Oh, the question was just how do you think you started noticing the difference? With people needing to affirm their specific identity, but also this importance of how people move through the world? And how that’s important also for understanding one’s identity also. How do you think you sort of came to that? Was there a moment? Was there an experience? Was it something that you read or heard about?

00:50:30 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think, I like honestly, like since the pandemic, I’ve just been on social media, a lot for better, or for worse. Like scrolling through Twitter or like TikTok. Also I think after the pandemic, I did take like more WGS classes in school. And I think I’ve noticed that to dismantle these structures of patriarchy and misogyny and transphobia, we can’t just look at ourselves in isolation and just focus on just affirming ourselves. I think it’s important to acknowledge, like, the way one moves through the world.

So like, you know, for example, I apply that to myself. When I look at myself, like you know, in my early college years where, maybe I knew that I was queer but I still moved through the world like a straight woman. So I wasn’t experiencing any sort of like homophobia [knowingly, at the time]. Whereas now, being in a queer relationship where my partner is visibly— where like our relationship is visibly queer— there is more, like of course there is more fear in going throughout the world or like, even being open with my, about my relationship in Sikh spaces, in Panjabi spaces. There’s like, yeah, they’re just more risk of like actually experiencing homophobia. And I think I see like, in other examples, like I can use she/they pronouns, but like when I move throughout the world, people see me as a woman, so I don’t really experience transphobia. So, yeah, I don’t know. I kind of forget the original question but I hope that addresses some of it.

00:54:11 SPEAKER_PSK

You totally answered the question. Not that you have to answer the question at all, but you totally did. I think it’s so powerful how you’re really thinking about how people are living their lives, how you’re living your life. It’s so important to understanding who you are as a person in addition to whatever label people may give you or whatever label you may use to help understand you. And like, I think you said something around like visibility and how that plays a part in whether or not you feel targeted for transphobia or become a target of transphobia. And I’m wondering, to kind of tie this what you’re saying right now to the earlier part of the conversation. You were saying that, that’s something that a lot of Sikh folks also talk about, is the difference between like being visibly marked whether it’s because of their hair or rather because of their dastaar their turban or whether because their color of their skin, the way they walk or act or eat or smell, things of that sort. And I’m just curious. Does the way that you think about the visibility with queerness or transness— has that helped you sort of see Sikhi or Sikhs in different ways as you’ve grown up through life, or is that maybe not a connection that’s super at the forefront of your mind?

00:55:53 SPEAKER_KS

Thanks for that question. I think I need to sit with it for a second.

00:55:56 SPEAKER_PSK

Yes, please sit.

00:56:19 SPEAKER_KS

I think I definitely have seen the connection in like what it means to be like visibly queer and what it means to be visibly Sikh. Like I grew up cutting my hair and I can like shave my legs or like pluck my eyebrows, and things of that nature. So I have thought about like how. Like, I fully do those things because— well, I cut my hair because it’s like easier to take care of, but in terms of like shaving and brows and stuff like that, I fully do those things to like feel more comfortable in this patriarchal society. Like, if I grew up in a world where, like, you know, women having a 5:00 shadow or like having bushy eyebrows or like, hairy legs was the norm, like I would— like I question whether I’d actually do it. Like, I probably wouldn’t. And so I think about like— it does make me think about how like. In being quote-unquote, like visibly Sikh, you are not only targeted because of like— you may not only be a target like because of xenophobia, but also just because of like misogyny and like ideas of like gender and like how a woman or man “should” look.

00:58:34 SPEAKER_PSK

That is very eloquently put. And, you know, I think— I don’t think a lot of people who are not queer are able to make those sorts of connections. Often, like we are, we are showing– or, at least what I’m hearing is, you know, you’re taking your lived experiences and sort of helping it also makes sense of other people’s lived experiences. Or like, how you— even with differences in identities, the way that you move through the world may be connected. And I just, I think that’s really powerful and really important.

00:59:17SPEAKER_KS
Thank you.

00:59:18 SPEAKER_PSK
Can you think— I know we haven’t talked, we talked about this a little bit at the beginning about, like your connection to different sort of Sikh communities, or things of that sort. How would you describe your current relation with Sikh communities and or you know, a specific Sangat maybe? And do you, do these, does being visibly queer, or yeah being invisibly queer at times influence any of these relationships?

00:59:51 SPEAKER_KS

So was the question, what is my relationship with Sikh communities? And how does being visibly or invisibly queer affect those relationships?

01:00:04 SPEAKER_PSK

Yeah, in simple terms yeah, that would work.

01:00:07 SPEAKER_KS

Okay, so I’d say I have a complicated relationship with Sikh communities. Like one community being like my family and like my extended family. I just feel like we disagree on a lot of aspects of Sikhi, like how we embody like what Sikhi tells us and like what Gurbaani tells us. And I could say the same like for a lot of the communities that I also like see, you know, maybe on social media or something like that. I just don’t like— I just don’t like intuitively feel comfortable honestly around people who are Sikh or Panjabi, and like, there’s always something in the back of my head of like, “What if they wouldn’t accept me because of XYZ reasons.” Just because I’ve never like experience until recently what it means to like be around Sikh people who are not, like queer-phobic. So I do think like when I do meet new people who are Sikh or Panjabi, I feel like I have to— I feel like I can’t like share a lot of personal aspects of my life.

I think also because there’s this idea of like Panjabi communities gossip a lot or whatever, and like those ideas that were told to me growing up like, “Oh, like you don’t want like everyone knowing your business,” or whatever. I think like that has like kept me from being vulnerable with people in the communities because I just don’t know if sharing information about myself will be like— if that information will be like safeguarded, or if they would silently judging me because maybe their own interpretations of what Sikhi tells us and Gurbaani tells us. And so, I feel like I’ve mostly been invisibly queer in those spaces. There’s even like— a lot of the Sikh friends I had or Panjabi friends I had growing up, since I haven’t really kept in contact with them throughout the last few years, they wouldn’t know that I’m queer. Like they don’t know that I’m in, like, the relationship that I am in; I honestly don’t know if I’d feel comfortable sharing that with them. But recently, I have been able to be more open with like some people, some Sikh people who— I think, like, it helps if we talk about, you know, politics and like other things first and like, rant about like all our thoughts about like the Sikh discourses that have been going on. And like I feel like if I have this conversation with someone like I can probably gauge whether I’d feel comfortable enough like sharing about myself and my own identities.

01:04:33 SPEAKER_PSK

That’s super, super helpful. And I think it’s helpful in understanding how you navigate relationships with Sikh communities. I think you sort of touched on this. But if you had to— in this moment in time, how would you define Sikh, in your experiences?

01:04:59 SPEAKER_KS

I think— I don’t think like— honestly, I think Sikh, being a Sikh can’t really be defined. I think, like— I think that’s like, honestly. The whole question of like, “Who is a Sikh?,” is like causing a lot of problems within a lot of Sikh spaces. I don’t know how better to phrase that, but, like, “Oh, you’re only Sikh if you’ve taken Amrit” or like, you’re only a good—. Or, I guess not even like, “What is a Sikh?” I think what is a quote-unquote “good” Sikh is something that I feel like has been causing a lot of problems in Sikh spaces. Like, “You’re not a Sikh if you like cut your hair”, like, “You’re not a Sikh if you eat meat”, or “You’re not Sikh if you’re queer”, or “Not a Sikh if you’re trans”, or, “you’re not a Sikh if you just, like fill in the blank.” So I think it’s like hard for me to define what a Sikh is. [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues]

And it’s also hard because like Gurbaani, I feel like, talks about the vastness of Ik Oankaar, and there’s this all-pervading force within everyone and everything. And, it also— like I remember the first time I learned like in Panjabi school that Waheguru is not like a different quote-unquote “God” then like Allah or like Jesus or like. I remember when I learned that, it was like, “Oh.” So, it’s like, there’s only like one Creative Force, but like people call that Force like different names. Like I learned about the shabad, like, “Koee boley raam, koee khudaa [Some call the divine Raam, some say Khudaa].” So like now— stuff like that makes me even think like, can we even categorize a Sikh as like someone who believes in Waheguru? Because if there is only One Creator, anyone who is on a path to like deepen their connection with the Divine would could be a Sikh. So it’s really hard for me to define who is a Sikh for those reasons.

01:08:18 SPEAKER_PSK

What you’re sharing, reminds me a little bit about when you were sharing your experiences with identity categories around queerness. [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] At least to me, it sounds a little bit like you’re saying it’s hard to define who a Sikh is or what a Sikh is without knowing like how they’re living their life because there are so many entry points. And I’m curious, in terms of like, you know— you find Gurbaani as something that was helpful. Were there other types of resources or support that helped you navigate your experiences, whether with your Sikhi or with your gender or sexuality?

01:09:26 SPEAKER_KS

I think, like, I had, I had like a Sikh leadership slash academic experience this past summer that I think helped me navigate some of the questions I had about Sikhi, and like how to like approach engaging with Gurbaani and stuff like that. So I think that was a helpful experience. I think, in terms of support, I don’t really like— I think going to the Gurdwaara like helps me connect with Gurbaani, like reading— or like when I hear Keertan and like see on the projector the translations and stuff. Like that helps. I mean, some Gurdwaaras don’t even have like translations. So, in that sense, like sometimes going to the Gurdwaara maybe wouldn’t even help, but thankfully the one I go to does. So that makes Gurbaani more accessible to me because I can’t like fully understand Gurmukhi. But I don’t like— I’m not like really connected with the Sangat at my Gurdwaara. Like I don’t— I couldn’t really say that like the people there are a support for me [with my Sikhi or gender/sexuality]. I can’t really say that my family’s huge support for me [either] because like we disagree on so many things and I don’t feel comfortable talking about my identities with them.

I think like— I think that’s like honestly the question that I’m grappling with at this period in my life. Like where, where is my support? Like where can I feel safe? Just because like, maybe like in college, I’d have a lot of conversations in like class, like WGS class— or women, gender and sexuality class, or like, with my roommate when I got home or something like that. Where I could bring things up then. But like now that I’m in my post-grad era, and everyone’s like, all my friends have mostly like moved to different places, I don’t really feel like I have the same supports. I do think like my relationship has been a support and a safe space to talk about my identity. My partner isn’t Sikh so I can’t really share— or, I can share things, but I’d have to explain a lot of context. But I think like my relationship with them has probably been the biggest support. As well as like some of the people I met in the Sikh leadership experience I had last summer. I think like indirect support has just been like the internet to some extent too— just like reading through, like, Reddit threads or something about like other people who might be going through similar experiences as me.

01:13:38 SPEAKER_PSK

[this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] And it sounds a lot like, I don’t know, maybe it’s my misinterpretation of— It sounds like the different places that you were able to live or inhabit have been really formative for you. Is that accurate to say?

01:13:50 SPEAKER_KS

I think the audio is a little bit muffled. Did you say the different spaces?

01:14:01 SPEAKER_PSK

Sorry, the different like places and spaces that you’ve had to inhabit. You know, different cities, or different colleges and universities or towns or whatever. It is seems like the place that you’re in has been very important or formative for how you have sort of understood yourself or come to understand yourself.

01:14:27 SPEAKER_KS

I think that would be accurate. And like more than the places itself like the people in those places. And I do think like being in college did help because it’s just four years dedicated just completely to learning. I didn’t have to like—. Yeah. And like I’m curious about gender and sexuality and religion and stuff. So like I naturally dived into some lines of inquiry relating to spirituality and gender. But I guess like you’re right in the sense that like now that I’m in like my childhood home again, but I have all these different views and different experiences. Now like— you know, when I said in the beginning like my childhood was pretty like— really like happy, and loving and idyllic in a sense. Now, I feel like that’s like that view is, [chuckles] not to be dramatic, but like it’s shattered. Because I don’t feel the same way, like with the opinions that I have now and the thoughts that I have now. Like I don’t feel like it’s a safe place for me to be myself anymore.

01:15:56 SPEAKER_PSK

Yeah, thank you. Definitely hear that. Would you say that this, like, shattering of your childhood image or, you know, your experiences— would you say that also influences your current relationship to Sikhi or queerness? In any way? Does it, like does it make you fight more for it? Fight less for it? Think more about it? Or something like that.

01:16:42 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah, I think I’ve definitely– or, sorry. Did you say the current– sorry, can you please repeat the question? [chuckles]

01:16:53 SPEAKER_PSK

Yeah yeah yeah. I just, I was just wondering, you know, you were giving sort of a reflection of how your current situation is. Maybe your current life stage is making you rethink childhood, and it is sort of shattering the image. And I was just wondering if the reverse is happening as well. Now that this image, or this the sense that you had of your childhood is being changed, is that sort of also impacting or influencing your relationship to Sikhi or to queerness today?

01:17:57 SPEAKER_KS

Um, I’m having a hard time like getting at like what the question is asking. Would you be able to rephrase it?

01:18:02 SPEAKER_PSK

Yeah, yeah, no, thanks for asking. I mean I guess I’m just— I mean, the answer could obviously be no, not so much. I mean, sometimes it’s the case as people start rethinking their childhood experiences, they sort of start asking questions about their life, their priorities, what does or doesn’t matter, what is or isn’t significant? So I would— I mean, I think you might have sort of like sprinkled this out throughout the conversation a little bit, which is why I’m asking this question. Is that you know— you made sort of a very clear direct link of like where you are right now and what matters to you is making you rethink your childhood.

But is there stuff now— that like the image of your childhood has more space in it or it’s more a question that, you’re starting to think— re-think about like, “Oh maybe that– maybe I, you know, I value my family,” for instance, “Maybe I don’t need to value my family.” Or, you know, “Friends were not very important to me in my childhood but they’re very important to me today.” So they’re, you know, like they’re just changes and, you know— it doesn’t have to happen. I was just curious if you were noticing any connections of like, you know, childhood being rethought and that’s making some sort of ripple effect today.

01:19:23 SPEAKER_KS

Yeah, I think there is. Like the way that I view my childhood does affect who I am today. I think like I try to like, push back on— like, when I disagree with something. Lke, whether that’s like around ideas about marriage or like caste or gender, like when I— or race. When I hear those things, I definitely do push back against those things because like I think it’s those things that are coming up more as like you know I’m getting older and like maybe I’m of quote-unquote “marriageable age” and stuff. And like that’s not something I had to deal with in my childhood. And so like, sometimes I look back and I’m like, all those things didn’t matter when I was like a child because like I was a child. I didn’t have to worry about like settling down and like having any family other than like my, my direct immediate family at the time. So yeah. I think it does give me like a different perspective now.

And I think like, sometimes— like even in my relationships with my family, I think like sometimes my mom’s like, “Oh, like you’ve changed.” Like you aren’t— like, “You’ve just changed,” and it’s like of course I’ve changed. And I think because of those disagreements I have with my family, these days do wish I had like more support system outside my family. And I have been seeing like increasingly the value of that. [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] Not only in my life, but just with living under capitalism in general, the importance of having community outside of your family just because there’s so many reasons that people might not find support or emotional or spiritual growth in their family structures. So I think, yeah, I have seen the importance of friendships, but it’s hard to make friends in a post-grad life and hard to stay connected to people and find community when now I’m working a full-time job and most of my time is dedicated to that. And that’s the whole point, like the whole point of capitalism is to divorce us from community and have us move away and prioritize a job and prioritize getting married and settling down and having kids. And then to have those kids eventually work, and the whole cycle continues. And I’m realizing how much effort it takes to seek out community because it’s really easy to get into that cycle. And what my parents say to me even reflects, like, those beliefs. Like, even though I’m only 22, they say, “Oh it takes a long time to find a life partner, you need to start looking now.” And life has become all about that. And when I was a child I had the room to dream of like bigger things. And in terms of like… [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] 

01:23:37 SPEAKER_PSK

Yes, I can hear you now. Okay, good. We’re getting just to– thank you for sharing all that. And I think you were sort of getting at this next series of– this thing that you’re trying to touch on has to deal with like what you desire in the future, sort of the type of intimacy or the relationships that you may be looking for, maybe your dreams of the future. If you had to, at this point in time in life define this, what does desire mean to you? Or, what does intimacy mean to you? [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] Can you hear me now?

01:25:21 SPEAKER_KS

Hi, I can hear you now.

01:25:22 SPEAKER_PSK

Okay, so that was just sort of following up on your question, as you were talking about needing or wanting to find community. I was just curious, thinking about like, what you desire, what you sort of dream about for the future. What would you define in this moment right now as desire? What does it mean to you, and what does intimacy mean to you?

01:26:06 SPEAKER_KS

Um, I’ve like thought about what love means to me a lot, but honestly I haven’t thought about what desire and intimacy means to me as much. I think like desire is to like, maybe want to bring a dream or something to existence. And intimacy would be like, to be able to be your full authentic self with someone. Or like sharing your full authentic self with someone would be intimacy to me. And, yeah, I think I would love to find more spaces and communities, where I feel like I can be like— like have more intimate connections, and not just like surface-level connections. And so, like, when I dream about the future, like I dream of like, like having that with my family or like, with my friends. Or like being involved in– or like being in spaces where I feel like I can share intimate connections with people by being my full authentic self. Yeah, even like in spaces like therapy, for example, I’ve tried to like— you know, I guess we’re told that like therapy could be a place that you can be your full authentic self, but I haven’t even experienced that to be honest. So I think like, I hope to find more of those spaces like on my journey.

01:28:21 SPEAKER_PSK

That makes a lot of sense. In Panjabi, we use the word as, you know, “umeedan” to talk about hopes and aspirations. What do you think are your umeedan for yourself or for the different communities you may identify with, or the people that you hold close and think of you, think of as community. 

01:28:47 SPEAKER_KS

I think my umeedan for like myself would be to like be able to like live as my full authentic self and like not have to, I feel like, make certain parts of myself quieter. Like when I go into different spaces and kind of like meld or like mold myself into like what other people want me to be. I think, I hope that I can like be more confident in who I want to be. Um, I also hope like I can build, or pursue a career where I can find joy in my everyday work. And be able to have my family and friends accept me, and celebrate my life.

01:29:41 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you for sharing. 

01:30:29 SPEAKER_KS

And I hope that for like the other people in my life as well. Like, I hope that anyone who feels like they can’t be their full authentic self can find spaces where they can be authentic. And I know like I sometimes I struggle with things— I don’t want to be like, I’m trying to think for a better term than “unrealistic.” Because like, I guess some people won’t change in this world and sometimes maybe we’ll just have to like find other spaces like where we can feel accepted. Rather than like, using all of our energy changing other people.

01:31:41 SPEAKER_PSK

Makes a lot of sense. Where would you say— that these days— where does creating space for intimacy or fulfillment, or in your words feeling like your authentic self, fall on your list of priorities? [this portion of the interview had interconnectivity issues] And can you hear me right now? Can you hear me?

01:34:30 SPEAKER_KS

Hi. I can hear you now. Can you hear me?

01:34:34 SPEAKER_PSK

I can. Those are the last question I had. So after this we can chat a little bit. But thank you so much for sharing everything that you shared tonight. I’m sure we’ll have some clarifications to talk about afterwards. I’d love to know, what do you hope comes out of sharing your life history with us?

01:34:57 SPEAKER_KS

I honestly was like really anxious to share my life history. Just because like I haven’t had to do it before. And I thought that like, I would get way too emotional to do it. But I think it was helpful to talk about my life even though it’s uncomfortable. Almost like, as an exercise to like just grow, and like, hopefully, like introspect later on like why talking about certain things like is hard for me. And so, I hope that like I can learn to be more vulnerable. And I hope that other people who are listening to these like experiences can feel less alone and like they can be more vulnerable if they have felt similarly to me about like not feeling like they could share their full selves in a lot of Sikh and Panjabi spaces in the past.

01:36:37 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you so much. Do you have any questions for me?

01:36:49 SPEAKER_KS

Not at the moment.

01:36:52 SPEAKER_PSK

Thank you again for taking the time to talk with me tonight. I’m going to go ahead and stop the recording now, and then we can do some follow-up chat.