Gurleen Singh

Interview with Gurleen Singh Part 1 of 2

00:00:01 SPEAKER_SB

And we’re live. Okay. This is Sukhmony. Today is June 10th, 2023. I am interviewing, for the first time, Gurleen Singh. And this interview is taking place virtually, respectively in both of our homes. This interview is sponsored by Jakara and is part of the Storytelling and Settlement through Sikh LGBTQIA+ Oral Histories Project. Thank you for being open to sharing and being open to this interview. So we’re going to start a bit broad with our conversation through this idea of temporal development. So one way people understand themselves is by thinking about stories that help them understand themselves. These stories can be specific to you, like coming out stories or memories from some formative events of your life, or they can be stories that you have heard throughout your life, or have been passed down to you. So yeah, when you think back to your experiences of growing up, could you tell me a little bit about what comes to mind for you?

00:01:17 SPEAKER_GS

Cool, and we’re talking about queerness?

00:01:21 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, but honestly I think it could be any, anything formative for you that shapes your identity. And maybe it plays into queerness, and/or Sikhi, but maybe it doesn’t.

00:01:40 SPEAKER_GS

Oh and Sikhi! It’s like I forgot completely who I was and where I was for a second. Okay, cool. Well, I don’t know what I was listening to. I’ll start with this. Lately, and it just like really— oh, it’s a podcast. Let me start really weird with a podcast about a woman who was like— no, no, no, anyways, I’ll just start with the podcast. I’ll get into the other stuff later. Anyway, she was saying like when we’re young, it feels like we have to hold on— we’re like grasping to figure out like, who we are or like where we belong.

00:02:37 SPEAKER_GS

And so we’re like, oh, yeah, I don’t, like, I don’t know, football. That’s not who I am. And so you’re like, okay, so that world, you know, I don’t like sports. So that world doesn’t mean— I’m a nerd. What am I, you know, I’m an artist. Like you’re just like kind of going through the world and you’re like figuring out what you like and what you don’t like. And it feels, um, at least for me a little desperate, there’s like a desperation to like, figuring that out and like putting these name attachments to us. And slowly, as we get older, those things just don’t hold the same weight. But for the time being, it’s actually very important to have that identity and hold on to that identity. Because you’re looking— we are looking, I think, to attract that energy back towards us and like, group up with like-minded people, you know? And then at some point it’s like, “Oh yeah, I guess that’s part of who I am.” And, also, I think there’s an opening of the heart that can happen. This is a little abstract, but like, to be like, “Oh, that’s not who I am, but I’m like, I like that too. Like, I love that too now. And I’m happy to explore that.” Silly, silly example. Growing up with this sports thing. Like, my brother and his friends were the basketball people. And like, you know, we had this kind of family-friend circle. All the girls would hang out and all the boys would hang out, whatever. So all the boys were always talking about basketball all the time, like, the whole thing. And all the girls were like “Eugh!” It’s very gendered. Anyway, you know, whatever. And because my brother was so obsessed with it, I had to form an identity “anti”-it. Now, like 29, gosh, years later, I deeply fell in love with the NBA finals this year. Like, I was— it was weird. Cause obviously, obviously you must know the Kings made the playoffs. As Sacramento people, it was a big deal for us. But I continued to watch after, and it was partially my sister-in-law coming in and her love, and I was like, “Oh, okay, I can like things my brother likes.” But like, I had to let go of like, some piece of myself and that attachment to it to be like, I can now be open to everything. Like I’m so— I’m so deeply secure in who I am, in this aspect of life. And more, but you know, that like now everything is in the world is open for me to love.

00:05:47 SPEAKER_GS

So I don’t know, I just thought it was darn beautiful and it really made a lot of sense. Because any conversation— and I’ve struggled with this in queer spaces about identity— I barely identify as a person. Like, I— you know what I mean? Like, I consider myself so fluid in existence that like, holding on to labels, it’s just not. Like people will ask me like, what’s my predominant identity? Like— beyond Sikh, like it’s really hard for me sometimes. And even nowadays, like, that’s hard. No, I can’t say that. But like, it’s all so fluid. But I think it’s because subconsciously throughout life, I was going through this process of like holding on, and then it became irrelevant. So I’ll give you a story that— and it’s not about queerness, but I can get to those stories as well. When I was a kid, I was with the girls. And I had two best friends. And this is what I wrote my college essay on. And this is when I fell in love with writing— anyways. I had two best friends. We would go swimming. We grew up from age seven onwards together. So we’re the best of buddies, right? We went through like puberty together. Like we all got our, you know, periods. Woo [laughing]. And like, you know, our bodies changed and our self-esteem changed. And we were like on the spectrum of Sikh people who didn’t cut our hair, you know, long and whatever, and families who didn’t drink alcohol. But, we’re modern, you know, we went to the pool. Like we were— but at some point, like we all stopped wearing swimsuits and we started wearing shirts and shorts, or whatever. And at some point we stopped wearing shorts outside. Like it was only acceptable while swimming. Like everyone’s— only wore pants. You know what I mean? Like we weren’t shaving. And then one day— and it was like this unspoken pact. You know what I mean? Like those things are really formative at that age.

00:08:33 SPEAKER_GS

I was probably 12, and one day my friend comes in wearing shorts and there’s no hair on her legs and my paranoid ass goes through her cabinets and I found Veet. What? Then I approach her about it. “Oh, I saw this in your cabinet.” She was like, “No, it was my sister’s, and it wasn’t mine.” “Oh yeah, okay.” But I struggled, and I had this— it was one of the first empowering moments. I decided, she’s wearing shorts, I’m going to wear shorts. I’m not going to shave my legs. And I’m going to go to school because I also want to wear different clothes and not be hot in the summer. And for, that was freshman year of high school. For the next eight years, I would say being a girl-woman, who didn’t shave the hair on my body was such a big part of who I was. It tied into my Cal— being at the College of Natural Resources, like hippie. Also finding white women who didn’t shave in the first year of college was so annoying to me because I was like, “I struggled through this and now you guys are just making it normal, like what is this?” But it was probably something I thought about every day. Like I was the girl who did it. And I don’t think about it anymore. I also, then at some point in the last two years, decided to start threading my face and this thing that had become the predominant, it was my main identity. Now, I was able to be flexible with it. And that’s the evolution that happened. So anyways, I think it’s a good example, at least in my head, of how identities change, and how we evolve, and how we hold on, and we let go. And then we’re just free to be who we are and what we want to be. Now you tell me, should I talk about queer— I can tell you story upon story, should I tell you about the queer stories, the Sikh stories? There’s good stories on both ends, but.

00:11:12 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, well, firstly, I really enjoyed listening to how you framed all that. And then also the story about body hair and like, I guess I wanna know did you just have this feeling of like, I’m just gonna like show up to school in high school like with my hairy legs and it’s gonna be it? You know, I struggled with that too a lot and it wasn’t until my undergraduate years, as well, where I was like, okay, finally I can just like be who I am. And I guess what kind of prompted you around that time to just like— do you think it was because you were surrounded by other Sikh women who were going through those shared kinds of struggles, or it was just, it just kind of was in you?

00:12:13 SPEAKER_GS

It’s a really hard question. I felt alone in it. I had my mom— sorry, there’s a WhatsApp. Can I delete it? There’s something pinging me. I’m gonna cancel it out. Okay. Yeah, my mom did not remove her body hair. There were some aunties who did. And we talked about it. But then there were the majority who did. And once the girls turned, it felt like the aunties turned too, like suddenly people were changing and evolving. You know, but as a kid, I’m like, “I thought we were up, you know, all in this together.” Even my mom was like, “You can if you want.” Even though she didn’t, she didn’t want me to feel hurt. And I felt, I was so upset that she— even though it was actually a good parenting thing to say. It was like a very logical, like, I don’t know, I felt like a force just like rode into me and was like, you can, you too, like shorts, it doesn’t— shorts aren’t just for people who don’t have body hair. You want that, you do it. Period. And I remember like at school, the first couple of days— [laughs] couple of weeks, I would intertwine my legs as tight as I could, you know, cross my legs so there was less surface area showing. But I really have been blessed throughout my life, I was never bullied about it. You know, I was never, no one even said anything about it. I lived in Folsom. Like I lived in like 90% upper middle class white— maybe not 90%, but you know what I mean? Like every blonde-haired girl wearing Abercrombie and me going to JC Penney and Gap. So I don’t have, I wish I had a good answer, but all I know is that that moment was so strong in me allowing myself to believe in myself and that I could make choices that were different than other people and feel like they were hard, but good. Like I can still remember the pain of like searching through my friend’s cabinet and the pain of that conversation. But I can also remember the strength of walking over in Gap, away from the pants and picking out a pair of shorts that I liked and being like, “My turn.” But yeah, to your point— the fact that we all struggle with it, like how— I think it’s just knowing that each of us have that in us, whether we want we believe it or not, and whether we see it or not, but that it’s, I don’t know.

00:15:18 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, that’s, I think it’s very cool when— I’m very much an overthinker. And so I feel like even if I had this force overcome me, I would question it. And so it’s very cool that you just follow that, and I feel like that’s also part of being young. You just kind of sometimes do things without, having a full strategy behind them, you’re just like, “I’m just going to do it.” Do you feel like— I guess, could we talk maybe a little bit about, you know, starting from that story, maybe going to college or later in high school, how did you come to terms, or open the doors to what your relationship is to gender and sexuality? This sort of, maybe the beginning of this fluidity that you mentioned that you’re floating in all the time?

00:16:29 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, out in space… I had a thought around it I was going to share… Well, I relate to it, being an overthinker. People told me that, and I actually hated it. I think it’s just because we’re deeply emotional people, actually, like deeply sensitive people, and thoughtful people. I mean, I’m just putting it out there, you know, and society doesn’t always value that, you know? So, then we’re outcasts, but actually there’s no shame in it. There’s no, you know, you’re a thinker. You’re a believer. And I am, you know, I am too. You’re thoughtful. That’s all it is. I just wanna throw that out there, but I can go on and on. The reason I wanted to bring that up was because I sit deeply in my emotional space, and in a way that, I would think of it as overthinking before, but I shifted. And what I’ve realized— and I think that was one of the first moments, but what I’ve realized is: any moment where I’m deviating from my truth will end up hurting me more. So once I like, and I’m fast forwarding, but it’s like once I came out to myself, it was like, I came out to everyone. And then I came out to the world. Like there was no stopping it, and it’s like whether I’m in relationship with someone, and I— it’s like once I know this thing about me like I can’t unsee it. You know, there’s no going back. And when I try to, I feel it, the inner turmoil of it, and it ends up hurting me more. So over the years, starting with that moment and others, of honoring that truth, that inner voice self, that’s like, this is who you are. This is important to whoever you are, you know, as a soul being in this body like, you gotta live it. So, um, okay so my freshman year— is that okay if I keep going?

00:19:04 SPEAKER_SB

Yes.

00:19:06 SPEAKER_GS

My freshman year of college. I don’t even know, but I got to college and I was like, this is how I’m gonna be. And I started wearing a jūrā on top of my head. And there’s a rebellious spirit— I don’t know if it’s come through at all yet, but deeply. I don’t know why she wanted to do that. I was 17, but everyone was like, what the heck is wrong with, you know, aunties are like, “Get that off the top of your head it’s for boys.” And I’m like [signaling to different areas on the head] “From here to here, we’ve decided, huh? Boy, girl? Got it.” But yeah every— people would look at me very odd and I felt like, “This is good.” Let me— my queer, you know, I need to stop saying it because it’s not empowering others. It’s not empowering to myself. But I say it to people I came out to late in life, 24.

00:20:00 SPEAKER_GS

So I didn’t know— I didn’t know in college, but this is like some of the— and I deeply— deeply searched for that middle school, elementary school crush that, “Oh yeah, it all makes sense, and now I feel valid as a person!” No, I mean, at most I could say I had a crush on Keira Knightley briefly and I didn’t understand why people had pictures of men up in there, you know? Like I didn’t get that like, oh, like talking about this boy celebrity and this boy celebrity and their abs. I’m like, I’m not, it doesn’t make any sense to me. But anyway, so that was the first sign of like, you’re a little oddling. And, and then I flash forward to like junior year. I remember this moment, junior year of college. I had this boy over that I very much liked. And we were talking, late night chat. What do the young kids call it? A situationship. I had a situationship for four years of my life. Empowered in some sense and unempowering in others, in the romantic space. And I remember telling him, “Ahh I just wish I could dress like a lesbian.” And he’s like, “That’s so offensive.” And I’m like, “Gosh, it is isn’t it?” But you know, my spirit was calling something, right? The last day of college— I went with my friend to Stanford and Alok was speaking.

00:22:19 SPEAKER_SB

Wow.

00:22:24 SPEAKER_GS

I know!

SPEAKER_SB

I mean, you don’t have to disclose what year this event was, but I’m kind of curious.

SPEAKER_GS

What the event was?

SPEAKER_SB

Like what year this was. Like, was this Alok way back? I don’t know.

00:22:30 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, no, no. It was, kind of. 2015.

00:22:33 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, so were they studying at Stanford at that time? Because I know…

00:22:39 SPEAKER_GS

They were graduated because they’re kind of old.

00:22:42 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I guess so.

SPEAKER_GS

They’re old. They’re older than me. I think they’re probably in their early late 30s or early 40s. I don’t know.

SPEAKER_SB

But yeah, regardless.

00:22:46 SPEAKER_GS

They had come back, and I didn’t really care. I was like, I don’t know. My friend was like, “Let’s go.” And I’m like, okay, “Let’s go.” And I don’t know what they said. They had a couple of powerful things that— but we walked out, we’re walking in the parking lot, walking to the car, and [my friend’s] like, “I think I’m queer.” And I was like, “Yeah, me too.” Didn’t think about it. For years, nothing. But it was these moments where people would identify themselves and it felt— and at that point, I thought of it in a gender way. Yeah, I hadn’t thought about it in a sexuality way. So it just felt like with the jūrā and the, all these other things that I was doing that I knew that like, I’m not exactly like other girls, so, but powerful moment. Yeah, so then fast forward to right before I start my master’s, I went to some Sikh camp, Sidak, up in Canada for two weeks. It’s like a two-week, by Sikh Research Institute. I met my first boyfriend. And then, and I met someone else. Like I met two queer women. But I remember just being like, yeah, I like girls. Like I never admitted it to myself, but suddenly like I was just saying things out loud. And you know, at the same time, I was having these like kind of romantic moments with this girl. Yeah. At a Sikh camp you know where they say go learn about Sikh things. It was one of the most formative experiences, spiritually and like queerness-wise, that whole camp.

00:25:34 SPEAKER_SB

That’s so beautiful, but also I can imagine so messy in that moment. You’re like, what is happening? Yeah. Feelings are spilled out on the ground. Like, I don’t know. Do you feel like you kind of leaned on Sikhi to navigate these feelings during that time or in other moments?

00:26:07 SPEAKER_GS

It just wasn’t a thing. Like, there was just no questioning it. As I described to you in the pre-interview, all these years of Sikh organizing up until this moment, I was so deeply Sikh and I so deeply believed in— there were things I struggled with, like why weren’t the Gurus women, and any of the writers women? There were, yes, that’s there. But a lot of things I understood, if it didn’t feel good, it might be lost in interpretation. And there might be some piece that I don’t fully know. Or maybe it’s uncomfortable, and it’s uncomfortable. But I was so deeply Sikh. There was no issue. Like, it was just— you can be gay and Sikh. That’s it. It just, and I, all I need, all— for me, all I needed was, people my entire life had praised the Anand Karaj. Oh, it’s two soul beings connecting closer to the divine. That was all I needed. I didn’t need anything else. And for other people I’ve talked to, and they’re like, “All I needed was Ik Onkar.” What else do you want me to, what’s the issue here? It’s all the fluff that people add to it. You know, “No, there’s the Husband Lord and the Soul Bride.” And “No, you know, look at all the Gurus, look at who they married.” You know, “Look at Grist Jeevan, you’re going against Grist Jeevan,” you know. That was their mindset as human beings and they were biased and they were stuck in the box of the reality that they had constructed, but it just wasn’t an issue. So, for me, the struggle was never Sikhi and queerness. The struggle was, “I have a mom who has wanted me to be married since I was 21.” And like, deeply, it’s her deepest anxiety. I’m 29. Eight years of torture. Love her deeply. She’s tortured me and has no emotional capacity to understand that. And I tell her that. But like some Panjabi families, it’s like, “Oh yeah, you should get married.” Like if I live at home, it’s a conversation that comes up every other day. It’s the worst. I’m not married. It continues. And so it wasn’t about Sikhi. Like Sikhi was like, God and I love each other. Like we are together, you know, like I was always seeking the divine and seeking, you know, not always— but yeah, always, you know what I mean? So, the struggle was more like surviving. So when I finally came out to myself nine months— like actually, even though I was admitting myself to, in all these like truth moments, when I finally came out to myself, it was, can I tell you the story?

00:29:37 SPEAKER_SB

Please, yeah.

00:29:40 SPEAKER_GS

So yeah, we’ll see what has to be redacted later, but yeah, as if you were the FBI or whatever. [Laughs] Redacted. Anyways, so this moment happens right, there’s like romantic moments with this girl. Me and that friend, we were, we started talking again, basically, like a year later, like nine months later. And then we’re on the phone, I was like, hey, do you remember that night? And she’s like, yeah. There was a night we were in the kitchen together and I think I fed her something. Like she had worked all day, and I was like, let me feed you. And I was like, yeah, I really wanted to make out with you. And she’s like, me too. And that’s when my world shattered. Like that was the moment where I was like, “Oh—!” This is the thing, those normal, those feelings are so normal, right? To want to kiss someone. It’s just like a thing. People want to kiss each other. Like not all people, but some people, a lot of people do, right? But then I was like, “Oh, that’s what it means to be queer.” Holy— that’s, I’m that, and I couldn’t even use that word. Someone, I told them, “Oh, I like girls.” They’re like, “Oh, you’re queer.” Oh, it was the worst. Like them putting that label on me, it was like, when you’re not ready to hear it, it was like, terrifying. It was so scary. I think I had that moment where I told our mutual friends, called the mental health hotline the next day. I was a hot mess. And it was because of my mom, because I— who am I gonna marry? Am I gonna marry a boy or a girl? And I went to like four years of therapy to try to work it out. I couldn’t. There’s more to the story, but yeah, it’s funny how the truth reveals itself, but then it hits like a ton of bricks. I’m from this upper middle class Panjabi community in Sacramento. We do these like eight-day weddings. I mean, it doesn’t matter what class you’re in, those things can happen anyways, but you know, like big deal weddings, like my brother’s wedding was like that. I just finished another one, like big deal weddings, you know. All the aunties talk about their suits for like six months prior, and’ll buy two or three outfits for each cause they’re like, “No! It’s the worst. I have to buy another one.” It’s like, that’s all they care about. It’s like waiting for the next wedding. Like that’s the community that I— I’m the only, besides my cousin who doesn’t count, now she counts, she’s 12, but you know, she didn’t count. I consider myself the only girl on both sides of my family. I was the princess. I was, everyone else in my family is a boy. Like of my cousins, obviously between me and my sibling, like I was the poster child of being a girl who was gonna marry a guy, you know? The weight of it, I cannot— I could go on and on to you about how, and that’s why I called the mental health hotline that night and like saw someone that morning who was like, “Maybe you should try like a LGBTQ circle.” And I was like, “No! It’s not gonna help.” Nothing would help. Nothing would help. I don’t know if you’ve been in that level of distress before, but I’m sure you could imagine like nothing could help. Nothing could help me. It just had to flow, you know.

00:33:34 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, in that moment. And yeah, there’s the moment like you were saying the truth is revealed. And then how do you live with that truth after that? And that is— it unfolds in so many ways I think. Yeah, I’m curious because then the truth has to unfold for the people around you in their own ways, right? So it may be apparent to you, but then how does that truth look like when it exists bouncing around the people around you like that. I think that’s where it gets messy and then it comes back to you and you have to deal with that. I’m thinking about like coming out and like, I don’t know, that phrase is used a lot and I think it means many different things and I think people come out at different times. How do you relate to coming out right now? And how did you relate to it back when you first came out?

00:34:57 SPEAKER_GS

So, okay, so. I guess.

00:35:01 SPEAKER_SB

What does that mean to you, I guess?

00:35:02 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, and I know it’s complex and definitely 100%. It’s not a one-time thing. It’s like a, it is a daily experience. But yeah, I can’t remember. I used to be more critically engaged. Like there’s people who have issues with it [the term], and I don’t know if it’s because of that, but definitely, I definitely can relate to that. With all of my, I don’t know, formative moments or hardships or traumas in life. The way that I work through them is I do something about it. I act in service. Well, at least I used to when I was a more dynamic person. So, in college, I had experienced some sexual harassment. There was a lot around that field. I’ll keep it at that. Like that was truths being revealed by other people and myself experiencing my own hurt. All of this. I ended up doing my Master’s of Education with a focus in sexual violence prevention and I was working in that field before that and I, you know, ended up getting a job and working in that field, and hope to one day return to it. So queerness was no different to me. It was very clear once I started going through my own journey that, uh, once I got past a couple hurdles— so it wasn’t super clear—- because there was a part of me that was like don’t tell your parents until you have someone. You know what I mean? But it, yeah, it’s another story. But it spilled out of me, basically. I like got this cute little tattoo. Can you see it? I can’t do this. It’s like a little book.

00:37:01 SPEAKER_SB

Oh, yeah, I see it now.

00:37:04 SPEAKER_GS

Maybe it’s a cheesy white girl moment, but I read this like Maya Angelou quote that said, “There’s nothing like the agony of having a story inside of you untold.” Yeah, and I drew like all day. I was like drawing on my arm and then I went to the tattoo artist and I was like. And it was a queer tattoo artist.

00:37:30 SPEAKER_SB

I love that. And it’s like yeah, it’s a— I love that. It’s like a good reminder.

00:37:42 SPEAKER_GS

Well, and it was a, “Hey, I can’t tell the world, but I can tell myself.” Yeah. And then it spilled out that night. I came out to my mom. It was a whole story. But then I knew I was like, I have to do something. So I came out to myself. Then nine months later, I came out to my mom. And then a year later, I came out on Instagram because I was like, I got to— I have to tell everyone because I’m gonna do some stuff around this. And I did, and it happened, and it was amazing, and it was everything that I needed. I think. It was a joy. So nowadays, though— so here’s me fully out in the world, right? Now, I’m transitioning jobs into this very vulnerable workplace. For the first time, this job was the first time where I was like, “I’m not gonna be out.” In my old job, there were pictures of me as a queer person around the campus, because I was at a university. Now, working in business, working with developers, I was like, “I’m not gonna risk the job. I need the job.” And it was the first time I decided the job was more important than my identity. Going back to the original conversation, we can flow through different levels of security to get to that point where that’s okay, at least for me. It’s still evolving, right? I might be out to my whole fam— and I— the multiple times coming out, you know, every six months, whatever, like all that. But it’s evolving depending on where we are circumstantially and what’s safe. And I guess that’s how it will be when there’s vulnerability that prevents us from going on. What’s your thought?

00:39:44 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. I’m coming back to what you said. I think the very first question about like, there are these beliefs that you hold in your childhood that sometimes evolve and like, how do we relate? Like taking that framing and taking it to your present moment, identity, beliefs, and your like past selves. And it takes work to contend with, like, “Oh, does this still align with me and with where I am today?” But it is necessary to keep living your truth and also protect yourself and do what is in your best interest at any given time or space. So yeah, just kind of reflecting on that because as I get older I’m sure my relationships to my identity and what that looks like within my communities also changes. But yeah, anyway. So now I think we can transition to more like— you’ve shared some notable stories and moments in your life, but kind of thinking of like identity formation. So, I’m curious, like, do you feel like the communities or family or friends that you have surrounded yourself with over time, have those often reflected your inner identity? Have they helped shape your identity in any ways? And yeah, you could talk maybe about the past, but also you can also talk about like right now where you are in terms of your identity, how fully formed does it feel, I guess, or how shifting does it feel?

00:41:57 SPEAKER_GS

I will say I couldn’t figure out, like any label just felt really hard in the beginning because I, because this journey started like from 21 to 24. More, you know, like it arose within me more predominantly, like there were boys in the past. And so I was like, “Am I bi?” You know, like, but I want, I don’t know, I almost wanted to fully reject that part of myself. It was funny, like the last relationship I had, like, she was queer, but like, I was the first queer person she was with. And I’d be like, “Yeah, but you’re probably gay.” You know, she’s like, “No, I definitely like men.” I’m like, “No, like probably not.” But I was like projecting that I wanted to reject this other part of myself, so I wanted her to reject that part.

00:43:11 SPEAKER_SB

Like the part that she likes, that she likes both female- and male-bodied people onto you?

00:43:21 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, yeah, or like yeah. I was rejecting the part of myself that like, “Meh, you know, whatever, masculine people.” And like, and she was so confident in that, like “No, just because I like you doesn’t mean that doesn’t exist.” And I’m like “Yeah but maybe you just need more time.” Like I was just being a dummy, but I think months of having those conversations I was like um “Oh I guess it’s okay to hold it all.” And like seeing that she so confidently did, that like it, yeah, it just allowed me to be like, all right, maybe some part of it’s true. And maybe, maybe really it is like 90% women or 95% women. And, but yeah, like, there’s been a place for that. And that, but I think the societal expe— maybe I don’t know how other people experience their queerness, but I think because once I leaned so deeply into that truth of like, “I’m queer, I like women.” Like my family wants me to be with a man, I just wanted to reject it, you know? But it’s not fair to like identify ourselves based off of trying to defend ourselves from our families. It just makes listening to them very confusing. Yeah, just really, yeah.

00:44:53 SPEAKER_SB

And I think there’s also maybe an element of like trying to reject this, the patriarchy in that statement as well, right? Like, sure, maybe there are guys out there that yeah you might find attractive or whatever but it’s like overwhelmingly the experiences of men has yeah been so distasteful. I don’t know.

00:45:19 SPEAKER_GS

Oh, what were you saying? Overall—

00:45:20 SPEAKER_SB

Been distasteful and like, I don’t know. I feel like lately I’ve been kind of, I don’t know— Like I feel like there are different phases too, right? Like, yes, depending on where you are emotionally, even geographically, but I definitely understand that level of resisting something and that helping to form your identity.

00:46:01 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah.

00:46:01 SPEAKER_SB

You’re like, ugh! Is this my true identity or?

SPEAKER_GS

Yes.

SPEAKER_SB

Or am I? Yeah. Can you have a true identity? We can get really existential here. Like, or is—

00:46:15 SPEAKER_GS

You know, I would love that.

00:46:16 SPEAKER_SB

You know, in relation to like the other people around you. Who would you say are like your core communities like you have right now?

00:46:31 SPEAKER_GS

Well, let me let me ask you one question. I mean you confidently were like I’m pansexual queer. How do you hold that?

00:46:42 SPEAKER_SB

I— and it’s funny because I say these words, but I definitely relate to what you’re saying of, I don’t know, like sometimes the language just feels like it fails us. I used bisexual a lot when I first was coming out to myself and, you know, there’s a history behind that word, but also for me in here in this present moment like it just felt like it was capturing the binary in that word, and I didn’t really like that, and so I felt like pansexual made more sense for me. But then, I don’t know, there’s also like stereotypes and associations people have with pansexual. So I think I’m still figuring out, like I would say like literally two weeks ago, I was like deep in, like, “Is this what I want to identify [as]?” So I have these moments and phases. I think queer is a word that I feel the most comfortable with. I don’t know. And I think also a question I had for you, cause I’m curious is, as like a Panjabi, how do we communicate this in our mother tongue? I don’t know, I think that’s a whole other thing, but I think it might relate to Sikhi and like the language we use to describe like, um, I don’t know I feel like maybe the relationship to describe connection to God is sometimes, is a lot of times heteronormative, but there might be ideas that we can put into words in Panjabi that can help form like this queer language in Panjabi. But I don’t know. Those are some thoughts.

00:48:30 SPEAKER_GS

It’s a good question. Yeah, because so often I feel like if you translate it to Panjabi the way that it is relationally understood, let’s say two queer people in a relationship, maybe you’re introduced as like the friend, like, you know, “ey onadi saheli hai” [this is her friend] or something like that, you know, because there isn’t language for that. So I’m the worst person to ask [laughs]. My Panjabi skills have trickled down to like so little. But I feel, and this was some of the queer work organizing stuff I was doing, was like, I feel so strongly about rewriting the Sikh narrative, at the very least. You know, about what’s getting in your head to open your heart to the possibility that people are just more than what you think they are and love more than you can think they are and like gender can be more, you know? Like what’s the obstacle? So anyways.

00:49:54 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. I mean, I feel like my Panjabi skills are like— yeah, no, it’s totally okay. But I think we all have those thoughts, right? Like how do we communicate this to like, I don’t think I would ever communicate to my grandparents, but like, how would I, if I were to talk to— you know? And it’s like, so much of that obstacle is like, I think the language. And then of course, I think the culture, historical like memory of like, where maybe like, yeah, queer and transness has existed within our culture is like, gets in the way too. Yeah.

00:50:41 SPEAKER_GS

Do you mean like in sort of understanding that, oh my god, I can’t even— What’s it called when you’re trans in India? What’s the word for it?

SPEAKER_SB

I—

SPEAKER_GS

Hijra, hijra?

00:50:58 SPEAKER_SB

I’m trying to, I don’t know, I’d have to look it up, but.

00:51:01 SPEAKER_GS

Okay, okay. Yeah.

00:51:07 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. It’s just, yeah. But I don’t know, what were you trying to?

00:51:12 SPEAKER_GS

Well, because you were saying the way that queer and trans people were understood in India, and I was gonna ask you, do you mean like how the Hijra people were sort of— in some cultures, brown cultures, they were esteemed and in some they weren’t? And so I thought maybe you were talking about like in the cultures that they’re more stigmatized. Does it, the general stigmatization, stigmatizing of queerness? But—

00:51:45 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, that’s kind of what I was referring to, like whether you see it in movies, or I don’t know. I don’t know, just kind of like these more popular culture scenarios, because I feel like that’s what I’ve encountered mostly. And even like the language, I think— I just made this connection, like, even the language around, you were saying you did work with like mental health, or I guess sexual violence, which I think maybe relates to mental health and like the language around that as well as I think [is] lacking, or [is] stigmatized like the way, yeah, and I think it’s just fascinating to think the ways that maybe holding that language constricts perspectives. But then we have like Sikhi, which is a religion, and that, and I think a lot of the values of Sikhi just expand— have the potential to expand people’s vision. And I, it’s just, I don’t know, fascinating, like, [what] the day-to-day of being a Panjabi-Sikh kind of looks like versus the scripture— what that looks like— and how we can maybe pull more of the scripture to our everyday lives. Like that’s a struggle I think, but yeah. I would love to know more. Oh yeah—

00:53:18 SPEAKER_GS

Just one more thought on that. I’m just gonna put this out there, like is the language the issue or is the heart the issue? Is the culture the issue, or is the heart the issue? Obviously, language informs the culture and culture informs the heart. But I’m just thinking like talking to queer Sikhs— not so many, but talking to queer South Asians over the years, I’ve met people with similar situations to me or like worse or, you know, or the opposite where it’s like a non-issue like even Panjabi-Sikh people where they’re like, “Yeah, my parents come over and we like hang out with my partner.” Or like my, “I’ve talked to my nani.” Or like that story, I don’t know if you remember, this was a long time ago of the Sikh person who came out on YouTube with— like was explaining it to his mom. His mom’s like, you know, saaraa roop daa kel hai or like rabb daa kel hai [all forms are part of God’s game/this is all God’s game] or something. And like, she was speaking in Panjabi, like, “You’re okay. It doesn’t matter.” Like, “You’re God’s creation,” or whatever it was, I can’t remember the exact— but like, it wasn’t like she had the language, but she was like, “Damn, gosh, darn it, I really don’t care. I love you, darn, you know, to the deepest extent. That’s— nothing about what society says matters. Like, you know who you are. Cool.” You know, like, so— part of it is an opening of the heart and part of it is a letting go of fear of what’s unfamiliar. So it’s all related. But I just think like, yeah, why her versus my mom, or versus whosever’s parent? What is it that she is holding in her reality that’s just full of this undying love?

00:55:36 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, that’s a good reminder. Cause yeah, I sometimes think it’s easy to. It’s harder to understand the heart and the forces that for someone to say or do something, and it’s easier to look at what they do and say and try and change that. So yeah, I like that you brought that up. Well, what I was going to ask was, I was curious about your organizing work and if you could just share some of maybe highlights, memorable moments from organizing with queer Sikhs.

00:56:20 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, okay, cool. I’ll— let me try to think, what would be helpful.

00:56:33 SPEAKER_SB

How do you kind of get into it, I guess?

00:56:35 SPEAKER_GS

The origins of it.

00:56:37 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah.

00:56:39 SPEAKER_GS

Okay, up until that point in my life, I was— this was during the pandemic. So I’m like two years into my queer identity or something, roughly two or three years into it. And I was ready. I did all the steps— come out to myself, check. Come out to Mom and Dad, check. Come out on Instagram, check. Blow up the community, check. You know, like it all happened. And I was like, cool, now I can organize, like, let me, let me heal through being with others. I had queer people, queer Sikhs in my life, like, not everyone does, but somehow, somehow the universe offered me those people. However, I didn’t feel like they wanted to talk about it. You know, like they didn’t want to like talk about their queerness and their Sikh-ness, I guess. And so I felt still alone in that. And I needed community. I wanted community. So I wanted to do something. But by this time, what, I’m 26 or something, I’ve done a hell of a lot of organizing. I’m trying to be smart about it. So I, it was awesome. It was COVID. So I went to a Sarbat event. Sarbat is the LGBTQ [Sikh] organization in the UK. I went to a Zoom in the middle of my workday, which was the best feeling to hop onto a Zoom around, with queer Sikh people, like more than the two or three that I knew. And be like, they’re right there, in front of me. Ah! And also that you can do that because you’re like on Zoom and it’s the middle of the workday. It was really awesome. Anyways, so, I ended up connecting with them and a couple people there and I was like, “Hey, can I just add to what you’re doing? Should I do my own thing?” Let me be thoughtful about it and not be like, “I’m the savior, I have all the answers.” If there’s something good being done, I want to connect with people, I want to do this thing, let’s do it. We decided I would host my own separate event, you know, and my roommate was a big, my roommate who has, you guys have the same face, parts of it. Yeah, she was like, “No, I’m here to support you.” Like fully, like we would talk about it every day after work and what this event was gonna be. Being a facilitator is still one of the greatest honors that I get to do and I love. I love asking people questions. And so I put together an agenda and then I brainstormed every queer Instagram influencer I knew and I reached out to some, I said “Help me.” And it was just one of the best things I probably will ever do in my life. Like I don’t— I’m not a big, like, I don’t have a lot of people on my Instagram but I messaged Rupi Kaur about it, I messaged Raveena, I messaged Sikh Knowledge and I got responses from them and they all reposted for me. And I kindly asked everyone to help me, and I think like 700, 800 people liked that post. And I had a Google form and I just told my roommate, Thamun, “Hey, it would just be nice if I, like 30, like I want 30 people in a room.” And I think we had 150.

01:00:34 SPEAKER_SB

Wow.

01:00:37 SPEAKER_GS

And the listserv that I had was 350 people who signed up.

01:00:46 SPEAKER_SB

Can we tap into the list serve? No, just kidding.

01:00:50 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah! I don’t do a lot with it. It’s here. I mean, yeah, we definitely can. For the project? Definitely.

01:00:58 SPEAKER_SB

We can definitely talk after to see if—

01:01:00 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, I wasn’t sure how many people you guys are interviewing, but I was— and I did see it’s US specific, but I was like— there’s so many amazing Panjabi drag queens in Canada. But, there’s no, there’s amazing. Yeah, so we can definitely connect on that. But it was mind blowing. I mean, and I had a queer, Sikh DJ reach out to me. I don’t know if you follow No Nazar?

01:01:37 SPEAKER_SB

No. Nuh-uh.

01:01:43 SPEAKER_GS

No Nazar. Okay. They’re like queer-led femme DJ South Asian group, basically. They’re like multiple DJs and they put out these like really cool dance parties in LA. And one of them is—

01:01:59 SPEAKER_SB

Oh! I think I was reading an article recently. I don’t know, I think they were part of some sort of DJ South Asian event in LA. So maybe I know them through there.

01:02:14 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, and they were flown out for Vancouver South Asian Pride or whatever they, they’re big, they’re getting big. I mean, they were, I mean, they were big before I knew him, obviously. But she reached out and she’s like, let me DJ, like, in the beginning, and that way we can just welcome everyone into the space. I just thought it was the coolest thing that we had a queer Sikh DJ as 130 people or whatever like from seven or eight countries around the world, tuned in from every time zone to this event. It was just electric. It was— I could not sleep that night, it was the best thing. And after that event, you know, I connected— a lot happened after that event, but I connected with random people over the years. And they’re like, I went to that event. And I came out to my parents that weekend. Which makes me wanna cry because I don’t know, it’s almost like me going to that Alok event, and being like, “Hey, I’m queer.” And that’s all it takes? Sometimes it’s just like one thing to help you see like “I’m not alone in this world and I feel like a little more courage to tell the people I love who I am.” So yeah I ended up doing two more after that and I ended up putting together a whole team and we eventually worked on the Queer Sikh Network Instagram page and we’re doing some— and prabh, I think, was a part of it for a while. Sarbat wanted prabh and I to do a podcast together. But I just met the best people and I have friends throughout the world. I was even invited to a queer wedding. And I was gonna fly out and I got COVID the day before. So that friend is now pregnant, and I hopefully will, if the stars align, get to see their baby. So yeah, I don’t know. It’s just magic. The whole thing was magic. Yeah. And I wanna tell you one more story about the recent, something that happened recently, but I’ll pause.

01:04:54 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I— that’s yeah, very beautiful. And I think is a good reminder that like, oftentimes we’re community organizing for like specific political moves or you know specific things which is kind of the point of organizing but I think also the point of organizing is gathering people and I don’t know I think that that’s really cool that across borders and across space like you guys have that, those events um to gather community and those relationships that are still lasting like three years later. That’s, I don’t know, that’s very magical.

01:05:42 SPEAKER_GS

Completely, yeah. Yeah, completely. Well, here’s the story, I’ll tell you, of the latest queer thing that happened in my life. Back last year, last year, a couple people had reached out to the Instagram and they were like, I wanted an Anand Karaj. And there were two couples reaching out. I said, “Okay, let’s make this happen.” Cause the project I was working on was called Queering the Anand Karaj. It was amazing. It was amazing. I just ended up in a relationship and losing all my energy and couldn’t find my way back to the project. So we would research, how do we counter the narrative, basically. What is it that the Akal Takht is saying that’s stopping people? What is it about the Rehat Maryada? What is about Gurbaani and the interpretation? What is it about Sikh history? And like rewriting all of those narratives. It was a big task. It was a big task, and we were just big hearts trying, right? And so we had released our first chunk and that’s what you see on Instagram. It was like just like the gender and sexuality, basically. But the Anand Karaj is something I’ve always been passionate about because Gurbaani is something that like, there’s a lot to it. But I considered it one of my greatest mental health resources. And so I always wanted people to have access to that because it’s different than therapy. It’s different than meditation, but like actual Gurbaani is, is something else. There’s something to it. So anyways, two people reached out on the Instagram, they’re like, “We want queer weddings.” I’m like, okay, we’re gonna make this happen. So I’m like, “Come in networks, let’s do this.” And I connected one of them and I set them up and I was like, everything was— I thought everything was good, you know. The other one I didn’t respond because I was in Pakistan, and so I messed up and they planned their, you know, I just didn’t catch it in time, unfortunately, but if— they said if they do a year, they were gonna have a regular ceremony and they might, they might do it next year. So hopefully I can make it happen because they wanted to do it in New York too, like, I know so many people in New York who will do it with you today. You know, like, the other city that we were in was a little harder to find people. Basically, the week of the wedding, they had some help from the, not the week— two or three weeks before the wedding, the Anand Karaj was supposed to happen. They had some family who were gonna help— distant family, and then some organizers who were gonna help. They didn’t, I think they moved up their wedding. Something happened. I think they moved it up. Then the organizer couldn’t do it, but they were going to use the family to do it. Basically, they had seven or eight family people coming, and every day another family person dropped off.

01:09:17 SPEAKER_SB

Okay.

01:09:19 SPEAKER_GS

So they had, uh— No— no— no keertan, no Guru Granth Saahib, nothing. Like, no Sikh people even in attendance. They were marrying someone who was not Sikh, like at this ceremony, they’re like gonna cancel it. So then I run to the forces, trying to help this person, and I’m calling every single person I know, reaching out to whoever I can. Long story short, I ended up booking a flight to fly cross-country, and I said I would read the Lavaan. And I was going to read it off of my phone. And it was like a trickle. One family member down, down, down, down. I booked my flight. One volunteer, another volunteer, another volunteer. In the end, we had ten volunteers. We had five people singing keertan. We had a Guru Granth Saahib. Like no one from their family showed up. Which, I don’t know if you have aspirations for marriage or like a queer Anand Karaj, but it, for someone like me who does, it was just the most devastating thing to watch. Now, some, you know, circles of queerness, like, it’s like, we don’t need to get married. Like, there’s like, there’s a lot of, but for me it’s important. It’s a big thing, obviously, I ran a project on it. And just to see my reality flash in front of me that that could be me and people don’t show up. They don’t show up to support, and they like create a lot of drama around it. I can’t tell you. But anyways, I officiated an Anand Karaj and I read the Lavaan, and the person who got married, I said— said equally the queerness, but more than that, like just even seeing a woman read the Lavaan was like such a big deal for them, and they’re married and they’re doing their thing and they’re happy. And it was one of the most wild moments. That was in January in my life. So I just, even though I— the organizing has stopped a lot, things like this, it’s just an honor to be a part of and to show up when, you know, other people don’t.

01:11:54 SPEAKER_SB

That’s so beautiful. Yeah, I think about that sometimes. I think— I personally don’t— well, if I were to get married I would love to have an Anand Karaj, but it’s that feeling of like it’s almost the community or the family that makes it what it is, you know, to some degree. And yeah, this feeling like, yeah, like, again, like, I’m like, I don’t see like, a lot of family going to something like that. And it’s, I think, a project, yeah, like rewriting. What’s the Instagram again?

01:12:47 SPEAKER_GS

Queer Sikh Network. Yeah.

01:12:50 SPEAKER_SB

Okay. Yeah. Like rewriting like Anand Karaj and all of that like, I think is very important because that is like the center of where like you were saying in your family they are looking forward to the wedding after wedding after wedding and that is such a center of so much community. Right? And if we’re able to disrupt or like transform what that looks like through a more queer lens, I think that is going to be met with so much like resistance, but also has so much potential. I don’t know. Yeah. So that was really beautiful because I— yeah, I hope one day to attend a queer Sikh wedding, I’d love to— yeah, anyway. Yeah, okay. Those give me, the stories give me so much hope and bring me so much joy.

SPEAKER_GS

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. I hope more of these experiences are waiting for you in the future. So, yeah, so I’m kind of curious, you mentioned like maybe the geography of these places and the Anand Karaj had some influence on maybe who showed up and in what capacity. Can you share a little bit, because you mentioned you grew up in, I think, Tennessee, or you were born in Tennessee. It sounds like eventually you made your way to California. Can you share a little bit of how the areas and neighborhoods in which you grew up influenced your relationship to yourself and identity?

01:14:50 SPEAKER_GS

Can I pee and then answer that question?

01:14:55 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. We can also take a mini break.

01:15:00 SPEAKER_GS

All right. I will just— Perfect.

01:16:38 SPEAKER_GS

Sorry, I’m an old lady with an old lady bladder.

01:16:43 SPEAKER_SB

Oh no, you’re okay. I’m dehydrated probably, so.

01:17:50 SPEAKER_GS

Okay. Well, this is what I wanted to say. I wanted to say two more things about the Anand Karaj because I was like— I’m getting lost in my own thoughts, which I tend to do. But when we read the Hukamnama for after the Anand Karaj, like the main takeaway was like, the Guru shows up for its sevadaars. Like if you love, you’ll be taken care of, and I wanted to cry. I think I did cry. I cried so much they were like “Are you okay?” But I was like, “That’s all I need to know.” Cause there was so much doubt. All of the sevadaars who showed up there showed up with deep fear. Like there were phone patrol people being like, you know, the whole thing. Cause everyone was so scared that this would end up somewhere and we would— you know, threats of violence would be enacted or something, right? So, so I guess like to anyone who listens to this later in life, like the archive, like, I just— if that’s what you want people will show up. You know, and I missed it for the other couple, a little bit, but like, people will show up. And when I did message, “Hey, let me help,” like 20 people messaged that they wanted to help with that New York one. And we’re not a big influencing group. Like we don’t have that many followers or anything like that. But just know what you want in your heart and put it out there because it can happen if that’s what you want. And so you were saying hope, like I really hope people know that. And this isn’t the only, I know a 3HO couple, not personally, but I was sent their picture of their Anand Karaj. And obviously there’s been a couple of public ones that have been more, you know, public. So I know other people who have officiated queer weddings, queer Anand Karaj’s. This isn’t a single in-moment thing that happened. It’s happening. It’s not— people are making personal choices if they want to go public about it because of everything that can happen there. But dream big. Dream big and get the moment that you want, you deserve, that you have a right to based off of your cultural and religious upbringing. So that’s it. That’s it on the, on the Anand Karaj.

01:20:36 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah.

01:20:37 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah.

01:20:38 SPEAKER_SB

I love the breaking of the fourth audio wall. I don’t know.

01:20:48 SPEAKER_GS

Yes. That’s really funny. Okay, so geography. How does geography tie into identity? Is that the question? Sorry.

01:20:58 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. How did the places you have lived in affect how you think of yourself?

01:21:08 SPEAKER_GS

This is a tough question. This is probably like round two, I’ll have more to say. Well, I told you a little bit in the pre-interview, like doing all of the Sikh organizing I did as a kid. I had the most special upbringing in California. Really. I think because of Jakara and because of California— there’s so many Panjabi people around. Like I barely had white, non-Sikh friends. I did, like, when I left college, I left with four friends. They were all Panjabi-Sikh women at Berkeley. And that was a personal choice, you know, but it was possible. The deep sense of community and being in community. Once I got to Boston— the moment it really hit me in Boston was,I was standing in line for food with my co-workers and like no one passed the plate back. And I was like, this is barbaric. How dare you? No one should expect it, but it’s such a beautiful courtesy. You eat before I eat. You go ahead and eat, you know? Or we’re eating together. Like we’re in this together. Not I’m gonna get my food and you’re gonna get your food. You know? So community was so— the importance of it was so deeply, deeply ingrained. And why I wanted a community space and why I continue to organize when I do organize, why I show up… On a spiritual level, I mean, we’re all extensions of each other. So we’re showing up for the oneness, right? So I think seeing that not reflected in Boston was hard. This is more of a California thing, but like, um, especially a Cal thing, like being in the Bay Area. When you walk across the street, like you say hi. I found that I say hi to people. Like casual social interaction is so deeply important to me, like, especially as an introvert, despite how much I’m talking in this interview, especially as an introvert, like, it just like— I might not talk to anyone else, but like talking to the coffee shop person, waving, making eye contact with the driver, like all of that was so powerful to me, and in Boston that— it’s just like, “I see you,” you know, even at the most fundamental level, I see you, I acknowledge you, right? You exist, I exist, we’re here together, even for three seconds as you walk by me. Something about it, it just feels like it’s acknowledging our humanity. In Boston, when people walk by you, they look down. And it like tore me apart in the first couple of months, the cultural shift. So I think being in California, being around Panjabi people, my— up until what, 23 [years old] or something. Now I’m on, you know, it just, yeah, it solidifies some values, but now I’m on the return end of that. Four years of individualism in Boston. I’m trying to relearn that, you know, it’s— some part of that left after being there for so long. The recognition to like obligation to family and I don’t know and community and social events and stepping it back into that world, there’s a balance that has to be formed. So, you know, you have a smirk— what’s going on?

01:25:05 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I mean, I just love the way you phrase that, like, just seeing a person, you know, even if it’s for like a few seconds, like, I think it’s so much more powerful than we give credit to because, yeah, I don’t know, we’re like just taught like “Oh I don’t know these people,” but they’re part of our community, they live near us, isn’t that important? And I feel that so much living in [my city] because, yeah, it’s— first of all, it’s not a very walkable city. And so, yeah, it’s— if we, it’s usually people in cars, looking at other people in cars, but— which makes me feel some type of way. And then when we do go on walks, it is that same thing where it’s like, let’s pretend the other person isn’t there. And I know I maybe do it from, honestly, the sense of fear, like to protect myself, because I’m like, I don’t know. Like, I don’t know my neighbors. I don’t know what these other people’s intentions might be. And I don’t want to give the wrong impression. So, I think there’s so many thoughts. But at the end of the day, it’s just like, just saying hi. Like, what’s wrong with that? So I don’t know. I have lots of feelings about that. And I think I want to try and smile and say hi more often. But—

01:26:41 SPEAKER_GS

No, I mean, it’s important to me, but I think that being a, you know, femme presenting person and being young, I think, yeah, there’s fear. And—

01:26:56 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I mean, I do recognize that. And I think that’s where the fear is coming from; to protect me. But also, you have to be a little bit fearless to change something, even on a small level. I don’t know.

01:30:06 SPEAKER_SB

The world is a completely different place when you are looking at it through fear versus you’re looking at it through like love or fearlessness and… yeah and I think I’ve lived a lot of my life being afraid and stuff and so I this is like a continual practice for me to like unlearn this fear-based thinking and trust the people around you and trust the humanity. Yeah, I don’t know. And also I think kind of listening to your gut because I think fear can obscure your gut and if your, yeah, if your gut is— if you’re attuned to it, like it’ll let you know when to walk away.

01:31:06 SPEAKER_GS

Huh. Well can I ask you where that comes from?

01:31:14 SPEAKER_SB

Like my belief in, kind of, the fear?

01:31:17 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah.

01:31:22 SPEAKER_SB

Oh, I don’t know. I think it might come from some semblance of like, previous lives, maybe? Like I feel like it’s just been kind of ingrained in me for a— I was like, quite a pretty shy person, child growing up. And I don’t know, I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. Part of it’s like, I was the eldest daughter, I am the eldest daughter, and there’s this, was like, imposed this image of like, the good girl for a very long time. So there was a lot of fear associated with doing anything that could be wrong, perceived as wrong. And that manifests in so many different ways. And so I think, yeah, it wasn’t really until college that I really contended with this, that I was like, a lot of my actions that led me to this point were based out of fear, of like failure, fear of like doing something wrong, like just from that place. And when I went to college and I was like, you know, I don’t actually want to do pre-med. I want to do these things I care about. And I was scared of myself for a long time too. And so it took a lot of time. But I think now I’m, yeah, I don’t know. It feels very good to be in a different mindset, but still acknowledge that place where I was from. And I think, yeah, I’m still working through some of that stuff, but yeah. I don’t know, some of these things like run really deep in you and in people and yeah.

01:33:19 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, and I think there are moments, thank you for sharing. I think there are moments when we transcend it, you know? Like you’re like, hey, I want to study English. I don’t want to be pre-med, you know, and you’re like, damn, I’ve come so far. Like, look at all these bold decisions I’m making. And then all of a sudden, like a moment could come and you’re like, wait a minute, you’re still there? Like, I thought we talked about it. We’re no longer doing this thing. And um.

01:33:59 SPEAKER_SB

Totally. These patterns, they repeat themselves in like a myriad of ways, like over your life. I don’t know, maybe my life, I don’t know, hopefully not, but hopefully I break out of them soon. But yeah, they like come around every once in a while. Or like I’ve noticed recently, I think this is also the weird thing about growing up is like, the more years that you live and experience, the more, obviously, memories you have. And as like the years go by you’re like, I don’t know. Something happened to me where I was remembering a moment from like four or five years ago and like my body like remembers certain things and they like come up over like, I was like, this happened years ago, why is this coming up now? But it is absolutely insane how your body stores certain things and they come up maybe around that same time of the year, or all these things. But at the end of the day, like hopefully like you are in a different place and you have more tools and like ways to like look at that emotion or thing when it comes up. But I don’t know, it’s kind of cool, but also like what does this mean? Why are you showing up again?

01:35:24 SPEAKER_GS

I totally get it. To whatever degree. Every time I experience something else, especially around heartbreak I’m like again? we’ve done this, no more. Like what? No! And I’m like oh yeah, I’m an evolved person, this isn’t gonna destroy my existence. Yeah. But no!

SPEAKER_SB

The first time it nearly did.

SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So…

01:35:58 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. There’s something so precious about the first time you experience like something big like that like heartbreak or grief or like really big joy, but then there’s also something that I’m learning so cool about re-experiencing those feelings.

01:36:16 SPEAKER_GS

Okay, please.

01:36:20 SPEAKER_SB

No, not like romanticizing it in any way. It’s like.

01:36:21 SPEAKER_GS

No, no. I need it. I need it. I resist life. Yeah.

01:36:26 SPEAKER_SB

Like, I, yeah, I’m like in a little situationship right now and I’m like do I want to open my heart up to this? because I’m very slow to like open up because then I’m like I’m opening myself up to heartbreak again, but then I’m like I learned a lot through my last relationship and I would be closing myself off from learning from that. I don’t know. I don’t know. There’s like all these feelings, but I am also very slow to act. So, I like I think about all these things, but it is, I don’t know. It’s like rereading a book, right? Like the first time you’re like, whoa, the second time you’re like, it’s the same story, but it like hits differently or different parts hit differently. And you remember what you thought about that book the first time you read it while you’re reading it the second time. There’s all these, so many cool things that rise up that you learn about yourself. But yeah.

01:37:26 SPEAKER_GS

Okay, I’ll take it. I’ll take it. Yeah. Yeah, I hear it.

01:37:32 SPEAKER_SB

I’m still young to my experiences. I have a lot of life to live still.

01:37:36 SPEAKER_GS

No, I think it’s wise. I think as a person, like, yeah, there’s a lot that plays into it. But I feel like I dragged my feet a lot through life. Because at some point I realized, “Oh, that’s life,” is that you’re kind of doing well and then there’s a thing and it creates a roadblock or a moment and you got to work through it. And you’re like, “Oh my god, I learned so much from that.” And then you move along and you’re like and then another thing happens, and I was like “Wait a minute I didn’t sign up for this.” Yes, I did, but you know, like I think I— no one told me that that’s how life works, I think they said “Go to college and everything else will work out.”

01:38:19 SPEAKER_SB

Nobody told me what to do after college is the problem.

01:38:24 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, you know, so I appreciate the like— because sometimes I’m like, I get a little exhausted from it all. And so I appreciate that. Yeah, it’s nice to pick up a book a second time because you’re right, there’s so much more.

01:38:41 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. Things you missed, things you want, you— you’re like, “Oh, I love this. I’m so glad I’m reading it again.” Soaking it up.

01:38:49 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, and also uh well to your point of a situationship and like “Hey, I’ve experienced heartbreak but like do I close myself to the possibility?” But who knows what lives on the other side of that door. So, on the other side…

01:39:07 SPEAKER_SB

There’s only one way to find out, too.

01:39:08 SPEAKER_GS

There’s only one way to find out, yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, every relationship is meant to teach us something, so, and meant to bring us certain joy.

01:39:28 SPEAKER_SB

I have one more question about geography. Were there any historical events, or even, I guess, personal events, but I’m more interested in like the historical events or like social movements that occurred, like, in any of the places that you lived that you feel were really important to you?

01:39:52 SPEAKER_GS

Well, I do think around queerness, I mean, around sexual violence, the Me Too movement happened and that, it was pretty powerful, but around queerness, when I was in high school, Prop 8 was big. And I remember— Yeah, I just remember like the conversation around it and like having debates with my dad about it and convincing him that, you know, it was all okay and whatever. I can’t remember if it was [that] we needed a yes or no; I can’t remember how the law was written or whatever. But yeah, I think about that sometimes, that it was one of the first social issues that I actively debated. Again, not knowing, you know, internal feelings, like such a strong advocate or whatever. But I mean, my time at Berkeley was so special. My freshman year was the Wall Street 99% – 1% movement. My freshman year, people were camped out. There were always people camped out, but you know. And my last year was Black Lives Matter, the first phase. Yeah, and there were graduate students who were protesting about their income, which now I know how little they make. So anyways.

01:41:25 SPEAKER_SB

You’re probably not a grad student, but you were a grad student.

01:41:30 SPEAKER_GS

I did do my master’s later, but at that time I was an undergrad witnessing it and not really knowing what was going on. But I was— I just feel very grateful for my social education and everything that was happening in history and being not a part of it, but kind of, you know. Like my friend, I dropped him off at the highway to shut down the highway. You know, he was one of the people. Yeah, during Black Lives Matter. So anyways, yeah, lots of very powerful things. And now just to rant, People’s Park is turning into housing. And I just happened to turn on the news and I was like, “No, it’s so much history.”

01:42:21 SPEAKER_SB

What’s the update? I haven’t been following it recently.

01:42:25 SPEAKER_GS

I don’t— I think it was denied and then I think it got passed. That’s what I thought. You probably know more than me. I just happened to turn on the news.

01:42:35 SPEAKER_SB

I thought it sounded like something had gotten denied because they were like planting wildflowers and like having community events still. I don’t know.

01:42:47 SPEAKER_GS

Well, being in development.

01:42:50 SPEAKER_SB

That’s honestly— it’s been, I mean, I shouldn’t say impressive. It was necessary that like it’s a multi-year fight because yeah, like how much history that place has. But yeah, three and a half years later, yeah— people are still standing that ground.

01:43:13 SPEAKER_GS

They should. Yeah, they should too. Yeah. Yeah.

01:43:18 SPEAKER_SB

Cool. How are you feeling? We have like the desire, intimacy and dreaming section left. We can also like move out to next time because I feel like we’ve chatted for well over an hour.

01:43:35 SPEAKER_GS

Oh yeah. Has it been two hours? Yeah, I’m hungry, personally.

01:43:46 SPEAKER_SB

It’s like lunchtime. Let’s…

01:43:49 SPEAKER_GS

Why don’t we pause?

01:43:53 SPEAKER_SB

I feel like we dove in a lot of different areas and—

01:43:57 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah

01:44:01 SPEAKER_SB

I think that, yeah. I also encourage you to take care of yourself after the interview because, yeah, it takes a lot out of you, I think. And yeah has probably surfaced a lot of like emotions and memories, so yeah.

01:44:19 SPEAKER_GS

Thank you. Likewise.

01:44:20 SPEAKER_SB

Eat something yummy.

01:44:24 SPEAKER_GS

I’ll eat the kale rice bowl.

01:44:26 SPEAKER_SB

The kale rice bowl. If that is your definition of yummy, go for it.

01:44:34 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah. Someday, someone’s got to eat that. It’ll be good. It’ll be good. No, and likewise, I feel like I say a lot of things, so you know, in case they were— I hope they weren’t triggering at all, but you know, likewise to taking care of yourself because it was a lot of time and it’s hard to listen to someone for.

01:44:55 SPEAKER_SB

No, I really enjoyed listening. But yes, I will be taking care of myself because like, like so much focus and like hours, but yeah um— did you just want to like sign on to the calendly [for the next interview] or…

01:45:16 SPEAKER_GS

Oh, well we can stop recording and then we can…

01:45:20 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, let’s stop the recording. Okay, that’s a good idea.

Interview with Gurleen Singh Part 2 of 2

00:00:02 SPEAKER_SB

All right, and we’re live.

00:00:04 SPEAKER_GS

And we’re live.

00:00:30 SPEAKER_SB

So we’re gonna conclude this second part of the interview with a conversation about desire and intimacy and dreaming. So just for context, the way that we’re thinking about this section is: one way that people understand themselves is by thinking about what they desire in life and kind of orienting their goals and dreams around that. So these can be about the type— these desires can be about the types of relationships people want to build, or who they are close with and what types of futures they see for themselves and for their communities. So I guess we can just kind of start off. I’m curious to know, what do you— how do you define or describe desire to yourself? And do you think this is different than intimacy, or even dreaming?

00:01:38 SPEAKER_GS

Ooh, okay. Deep, deep words. Desire. I guess. Let’s see. Maybe if I scratch my head, the thought will come up. There’s like, initially when I thought desire is like, “Oh, are you guys talking about sexual desire?” I just wasn’t sure if that’s what you all meant. But if I put that to the side, then I would think about like, yeah, like visioning for the future a little bit and thinking about, for me, I always go to purpose, life purpose. I did a lot of like— everyday, soul seeking or heart seeking, you know, seeking of the heart of like, “Why exist? Like why be here on earth?” Like, not in a dark way, but like, what’s going on? You know? And, and trying to ascribe like meaning to that, which I think in the first part, I’m sure, came through, of whatever traumas I had, I needed to work through them by offering service to someone else and like hosting the event to like make sense of my own queerness. So yeah I think that desire and dreaming feel very, go very hand-in-hand in this kind of definition of like more like how to use this like, single beautiful life that we are given. And intimacy? I mean, I think, I’m thinking of that much more relationally, like person-to- person, you know, and so, and not necessarily romantic, but like there’s physical intimacy, which the first thing that came to my mind was me backpacking with my friends and sharing a tent and being gross together [laughing]. There’s that kind of intimacy. There’s the being with your parents and being a child and being a gross pooping and peeing person intimacy, like having relationships that like know that side of you, you know. There’s like emotional intimacy, someone you may feel more comfortable sharing about what’s going on and on the inside. And then like a spiritual intimacy, someone who kind of gets your path or your worldview a little bit more. And I think sometimes emotional and spiritual can connect, but sometimes I feel like you can kind of see the world in a certain way and not like, go into the like nitty gritties of the heart. Yeah, those are some definitions we can start with.

00:04:52 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. And I guess, do you think that these kind of angles of approaching these definitions, do you think it’s evolved over time for you? Like was there a time back in the day where you thought about each of these forms of, yeah, desire, intimacy, and dreaming in very different ways or slightly different ways?

00:05:25 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, that’s a good question. I definitely, like constantly, have to break the idea that there’s only one life purpose. It’s multiple. Because personally, I feel like I’m building towards something. But when I get too stuck in that mindset, I discount everything that I’m building towards in each moment. So that’s something, maybe that, it’s not like I ever was like, “Oh yeah, like that person’s meant to be a chef and that’s their one purpose.” And that person’s, you know, I don’t think it was that simplistic. But I know that’s like an inner narrative that I kind of like always like rocking back and forth in between. I’ll come back to that. Yeah, I’ll see if there’s anything else pops up but around dreaming. I definitely feel a lot more gratitude for life, like life in general. I started to learn— over COVID, I started learning to love cats, and then my roommate taught me to love plants and sunshine. And, I know, sweet things and just there’s a really good audio clip by Ram Dass, who’s like this white spiritual person, meditation person, and he said, “Start with anything that you can love and move to the next thing”. And you’ll just see that if you keep building to love everything around you— and it can be as simple as sunshine it can be simple as cats and I, I like kind of found myself doing that like loving this kind of animal made me more excited about this kind of animal and it’s not that I like ever was closed off to that but maybe a little like “blinders on” like if I’m taking a walk I’m taking a walk to move the feet or smell the air. Now, like if I take a walk, I’m there to see the dogs. And like, I’ll say hi. I’ll say hi to everything now. I’ll say hi to the dog, I’ll say hi to the flower, I’ll say hi to the tree, then I’ll say hi to every tree. And that’s an issue I have. But yeah, so anyways, but yeah, there’s— so because of this learning to love everything around me. Lately, I’ve been trying to think about stones. I was listening to a podcast about stones, like the life within stones. Anyway, yeah, so there’s just a lot more gratitude for the struggle and the beauty. And trying to increase the beauty. The struggle is there, but just like; see more of the beauty every day.

00:08:39 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. Yeah. Have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer?

00:08:47 SPEAKER_GS

It’s like, too, it was like, I couldn’t get through all of it because I could only get through like three pages at a time because it was intense and like so good.

00:08:57 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, firstly, I would recommend the audiobook.

SPEAKER_GS

Oh!

SPEAKER_SB

Because the author actually reads the audiobook. And I actually, that’s the only way I’ve engaged with that book actually, but I’ve listened to it two or three times and this year I need to re-listen to it, like I’ve realized I’m like “Oh I want to make this like an annual thing.” But there’s a section probably towards like the middle towards the latter part of the book where Kimmerer talks about like the tribe that she is from, there is a practice of gratitude that they go through where they list and thank everything around them. And I think your saying, “Hello,” to everything around you is, yeah, such like— I think it’s a very powerful thing because it like forces you to pay attention and recognize, yeah, like the life and everything around you, which is, yeah. So anyway, that’s what I was reminded of.

00:10:04 SPEAKER_GS

Thank you for the reminder, yeah. Was that the section on like the school, like the school?

00:10:14 SPEAKER_SB

Yes, like the school assembly or something?

00:10:17 SPEAKER_GS

Yes, like not the pledge of allegiance, but that was the pledge that they did.

00:10:22 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, yeah. Like the, yeah, welcoming, opening, whatever.

SPEAKER_GS

Something, yeah.

SPEAKER_SB

Not those words, But yeah.

00:10:33 SPEAKER_GS

I will take a look at the audio book when I’m ready to— It’s like, it hits really well, you know, all that.

00:10:42 SPEAKER_SB

It is so good. Yeah. I love the strawberry section as well, like the gift economy and how strawberries are always meant to be given as a gift. You can’t— there’s no way to sell a strawberry because it’s not allowed. It doesn’t work that way. But anyway, yeah, lots of good lessons in that book.

00:11:11 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, thank you for that.

00:11:14 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, a lot of lessons about like intimacy, I think, now that I’m looking at these questions. Yeah, cool. Okay. I guess kind of building off of this, do you think there was like a phase in your life, or a certain relationship or relationships that deepened your understanding of desire, intimacy in your life? However, yeah, whatever form you want to approach it from.

00:11:57 SPEAKER_GS

A relationship, you said?

00:11:59 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be romantic or— any form of relationship, I suppose.

00:12:13 SPEAKER_GS

I mean, the first thing that came to mind was each of the people that I’ve held romantically in some capacity have given love in very different ways. And so I think I’m kind of like an odd noodle sometimes and I’m like, I don’t know, like how to engage with another person, you know. But like the way someone will like even hold your hand, like partner to partner will be kind of different. And so I’m like, “Oh, this is nice. I’ll take that for the next one.” Maybe that’s weird, but like something to like, “Oh, I can use this like tool to then show love to the next person,” you know? So yeah, I feel like there’s, through relationship, there’s been a teaching, a little bit of that. But the, I don’t know, they haven’t been all positive experiences, so they’re kind of hard. I feel like there’s a lot of like, learning to love myself and honor what doesn’t feel good, you know, that comes from those relationships. A lot, yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if you— I think this was either on a TV or it came up a couple years ago, like the desire to have like an ideal celebrity couple or like, not celebrity couple, couple role model, to like be like, “Oh, this is what healthy love,” or whatever to sort of like strive towards, but sometimes it’s hard to figure out what’s like reasonable and what’s, what you’re working towards, you know? It’s really interesting because the first thought that always comes to mind is like Michelle and Barack Obama. And I watched her most recent— did you watch her Netflix thing that came out? I’m not sure if you’re into her.

00:14:36 SPEAKER_SB

I do. I am. Yeah. Into— I don’t know. I guess I don’t keep up with them as much. But is it like an interview show?

00:14:46 SPEAKER_GS

She wrote. Yeah. Yeah. She wrote a second book.

00:14:50 SPEAKER_SB

Okay.

00:14:51 SPEAKER_GS

And called The Light We Carry.

00:14:53 SPEAKER_SB

Okay, I’ve heard of that.

00:14:55 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, and then did like a Netflix, like a one hour talk with her and Oprah.

00:15:01 SPEAKER_SB

Okay, I’ve probably seen like snippets of this on social media.

00:15:06 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, she said, she said, like, “I love Barack, and we’ve been together for 30 years. And for 10 of those years, I couldn’t stand him. But I would take those odds any day.” and I feel like the internet exploded.

00:15:28 SPEAKER_SB

I know what scene you’re talking about because that was, I think they had just had one of their daughters or it was like, around like the time they had become new parents or something.

00:15:40 SPEAKER_GS

That was it.

00:15:41 SPEAKER_SB

I also find that super fascinating. It’s like… 10 years? You know, whoa, okay. Alright. Yeah. It’s enticing, you know. Yeah. Ten years. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

00:15:52 SPEAKER_GS

I don’t remember exactly what the question was, but that was just some stuff that came to mind.

00:16:06 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. You mentioned, yeah, like kind of like these role model kind of public figure couples that kind of role model love and what that, and intimacy, what that means. And I’m curious, who did you look up to when you were growing up and like modeling those things? Like, I think to some extent, our parents are always somebody that are like people that we look up to, and I’m curious like was— that form of like love or intimacy something, I guess how did you wrap your head around that? And I think especially as like, Panjabi-Sikhs, like, I think we have such weird, complicated relationships to like, yeah, PDA and like, just even saying “I love you”. And I’m curious what sort of love you witnessed or observed when you were younger.

00:17:16 SPEAKER_GS

Well, they’re definitely, my parents aren’t the ideal relationship in all ways. I guess they’re like some type of soulmate, you know, they work together. They have worked together for, I don’t know, like 15 or 20 years or something. Which I think that not every couple can do that depending on levels of independence and wanting to have a separate work life or whatever, but they both just grind. And they love to grind, and they love to learn new things, and they both are just nerds about whatever it is that is new. They’ve just switched careers and they’re like in their 50s, so and they’re like doing it both, you know, so I think there’s something, there’s something like really cool. And actually, I wonder if that does shape me because whenever I think about a future partner, like what I want, I always think about building, I think more in like a social way, but I always think about like, it’d be really nice to build not only our world, but like build for the world, you know, like, do all the good things if possible. So yeah, maybe that comes— I mean, especially because my parents when we were young started like a Sikh camp. It was just once a week, once a year, for a weekend, but it was very formative. Maybe I talked about it last time. A little bit, yeah, yeah. Very formative. The more positive stuff, I think, in addition to that is the way they held onto community. Very, very, very fortunate. We kind of have this family-friend circle of like five other families and we’ve all known each other for, since I was seven years old. So, 22 years. And like, whenever someone’s parent dies, or whenever someone is sick, or whenever someone’s got a wedding, like everyone shows up. And my god, there is drama upon drama upon drama, like gossip against gossip and all of that, you know, in this like, so— social circle, but they just like show up and we all live within like a mile of each other, almost like the majority of the families. So we can walk to each other’s houses or be there in like three minutes. So I just know like, that didn’t happen by accident. And there’s definitely, it’d be so cool. I don’t know if I aspire to it cause it feels like too perfect. You know what I mean? To like— I have friends who kind of look back at that, look at that circle and they’re like, “Oh yeah, we don’t have that.” Even the kids, it’s not like we’re all very similar. It’s not like I would say they meet levels of deep, deep friendship by any means, but we show up and respect and love each other, even if it’s at a high level. So there’s definitely desire for that. And when I, I’ll say when I was a kid, I remember saying to myself, I think my like cousin or brothers would ask me like, “What type of like man-person do you want?” You know? And I’d say like, I want someone who, we re-imagine everything that goes into a relationship and decide what we want for ourselves. Like there are no rules, like we decide the rules. And they were like, good luck with that. That’s no man that I know. I’m like, whatever. But yeah, just a lot of reimagining and like, and building, I think is like at the core of what I see for the future.

00:21:28 SPEAKER_SB

You mentioned like, in relation to your life purpose, like you envision, you see it as something that you’re building towards. What are you currently building towards?

00:21:44 SPEAKER_GS

I don’t know. And if I tell you my actual like dreams and aspirations, you’ll like laugh at me. But I just—

00:21:59 SPEAKER_SB

[Giggling] Tell meee. I find that stuff so, cheesy, but very inspiring. I don’t even care if it’s to open up a bookstore. I don’t know, it could be anything, but I love it.

00:22:10 SPEAKER_GS

No, you know, it’s I kind of just, one, want to be Oprah, which— I see myself on stage and I see myself talking to people about life and love. And like sometimes it’s an overwhelming feeling. It was one of the more silly thoughts is I went to go see Coldplay at Santa Clara Stadium, like the Levi’s Stadium. And I just kept looking at the stage, like, “Why am I not on stage?” It’s not like I had anything to say. Clearly, like they were doing a really lovely concert, but I was like, “That’s where I should be.” So, yeah, I don’t know. I’ve like, wanted to write a book for a long time, but I can’t find the words. And I don’t know what it’s about. And I’ve had like, different ideas, but I just don’t know if I’m there yet. So it might be a 50 year goal to get to that thing. But I just feel like I could, you know, I could speak.

00:23:28 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah.

00:23:28 SPEAKER_GS

I could, I could share love. But it’s a weird thing because I’m like, well, it’s not like my life’s been the most inspiring or I don’t know, not that it has to be. It’s making, sometimes like inspiration is making meaning from the mundane and it seems like not magical and like turning a light to it, you know? But, but why me and why, why, is it all ego? What is it? You know, but it’s just a deep feeling. And then I find myself at my job fighting white men and being confused about what’s happening. Wishing to get to— gosh do I desperately wish to get to the end of this story, fairy tale. Always, always, that’s me.

00:24:18 SPEAKER_SB

I mean, yeah, I’m a writer, well, I’m a writer who spends a lot of time not writing, I guess. And I think I relate to that feeling of like, it’s adding up to something, like this life experience is adding up to something. And, you know, you’re gonna have— I don’t know, yeah, your experiences right now at work, I think you’re gonna be able to like turn into something that other people find relatable and maybe even you guys can laugh together about it but I know in the moment it’s like really shitty. Yeah. I think it’s really— you said like you just feel like called to do that and I, yeah, I really just love hearing that because I think so often we don’t listen to what we’re feeling called to do and, and sometimes it’s not clear on how to take the next steps to follow what you’re being called towards and I think that’s like, I don’t know. I noticed as part of my research, I was like kind of scrolling through your Instagram and I noticed you have— I think probably during COVID like have done a lot of like speaker events and things like that. I guess, how did those feel for you while you were doing them? Did they feel as like fulfilling and what you hoped to get out of those, like sharing with like the queer Sikh community?

00:26:11 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, well, now I’m just more curious about your writing and what you write about. But we can talk about that later.

00:26:24 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, we can definitely talk about it later.

00:26:26 SPEAKER_GS

I’m like, it probably is a lot—

00:26:27 SPEAKER_SB

Happy to talk, probably not worth putting it in the transcript, but [both laughing].

00:26:33 SPEAKER_GS

All right, I’ll let you slide on that. Yeah there are a couple things in life where I feel like the most natural and most like joyful and like I shine. And it’s facilitating conversations. And this is something we haven’t talked about, but doing energy work, which is like a more recent phenomenon in my life. And it’s like a feeling of being at like complete peace with myself and like, like full of life at the same time. So yeah, not all those events I got to speak at and whatever, but I love working a room. I love hearing other people’s thoughts. I love making people laugh. I used to start all my presentations on sexual violence with like, “I’m really here to test out my comedy set”.

00:27:54 SPEAKER_SB

I love it.

00:27:55 SPEAKER_GS

Which I really was. But I’m too scared. I thought about doing standup before, but I’m too scared, terrified.

00:28:06 SPEAKER_SB

Who are some of your favorite comedians?

00:28:09 SPEAKER_GS

Oh my god. I love Mike Birbiglia. I don’t think he’s top-of-the-line famous but his whole thing is storytelling he just story tells and like makes fun of himself and the situation at the same time it’s like the full-hour special. It’s crazy. He like leans in like if, like me and my brother are kind of comedy nerds so like one will dissect the like comedian after we watch. It’s like about the jokes. It’s about the delivery. It’s about the tone. Like it’s about the callbacks. Like, I don’t know all the technical terms, but anytime I go to an event where I’m seeing someone speaking, I’m watching them on the content, but also their delivery and their flow. I can’t unsee that. And I’ve always done that. When I was a kid, I used to write speeches in my head. Anyways, there’s a long history of it. The COVID stuff was like, especially the event I spoke about, was definitely the highlight of all of the ones. And the queer, there was a queer Keertan thing once and that was another lovely one, but mostly because I was crying at the Keertan. So yeah, do you have a thing?

00:29:38 SPEAKER_SB

That’s so beautiful. I love that.

00:29:43 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, I know.

00:29:43 SPEAKER_SB

Do I have? Do I have what?

00:29:45 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, do you have a space where you experience that moment? It’s kind of intangible to describe, but it’s like both full of life, brimming with life? And full, yet peace.

00:30:03 SPEAKER_SB

I think lately when I meditate, I like, am in that headspace. I’ve really been trying to carve out more time to write because I think, I don’t know, that’s kind of like the deep calling feeling that I’ve always had for a very long time. And yeah, sometimes the act of writing is very painful, or like it feels very painful, but like once I start, it’s just like, it just feels really good. And it’s interesting because it’s like something I can’t really share with another person. It’s just like me and like whatever is in front of me. But I think I also feel like really deep joy just having like one-on-one conversations with people. But that’s a good question. I want to think about that more because— and I also always say like just being outside. Like I am— I don’t say hello to every rose and petal I see, but I definitely am so absorbed and mystified and in awe of like, everything on this planet. And like, I just always, yeah. And I mostly write poetry and I think poetry requires such like, attention to detail and just observation and I think those two like go together so well and so yeah bring me outside anytime, or like give me a good poem or yeah, I feel like those are the spaces where I continually just find so much joy in. But yeah.

00:32:02 SPEAKER_GS

You have a favorite, like do you have favorite poets that you follow?

00:32:08 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I have a few, I guess, modern-day poets. And actually, I’ve been getting a little bit— I’ve been more interested in performance lately and I think it kind of connects to your obsession with analyzing comedians and just any sort of performer. And so Aja Monet is a poet I really love and yeah, Black woman poet from the Bronx, and she just released an audio album, I don’t even know what you would call it, but just like an album of poems. And so her whole thing is performing poetry and the like very audio aspect of it, not just like reading it on a page. And I think, and she overlays her, her performances with like jazz music and it’s just so cool and so good. So you should— yeah, it’s funny to say like, “Look up a poet on Spotify,” but look up Aja Monet on Spotify.

00:33:19 SPEAKER_GS

I will.

00:33:20 SPEAKER_SB

Or on YouTube or whatever. Yeah, her stuff is really good.

00:33:23 SPEAKER_GS

Wow. That’s awesome.

00:33:29 SPEAKER_SB

That would be one recommendation.

00:33:31 SPEAKER_GS

Thank you. And I have to say I relate to the “it’s painful to write sometimes”. Anytime, because I’ve been doing a lot of journaling lately. I get like three sentences in and then I get on Instagram because it’s like too hard and then I go back and I’m like I know I just have to stick with it, but I like and it, it made me— uh oh yeah did you have a thought about that?

00:33:58 SPEAKER_SB

No, I yeah, definitely agreeing with what you’re saying.

00:34:04 SPEAKER_GS

Yes. Well, I haven’t really described this very well to anyone, but I’ve kind of just finally named it for myself. I also find that there are things in this world that are like, mmm, medicine for the soul, I guess, kind of. And so when you relax into them, they can do you a lot of good. Gosh, darn, it’s hard to relax. So writing is one example. I find that like, if I haven’t listened to Keertan in a while or like recited an Gurbaani in a while, it’s like, I don’t wanna touch it. Which is like, I always feel like, why do I feel that way? But I think, cause like these medicines are so powerful and then they like literally work on your heart, and like open you up, and if you’re like a little closed turtle shell, this thing’s like knock knock. So anyways.

00:35:12 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah.

00:35:13 SPEAKER_GS

It’s taken me years to figure this out, why I don’t want to listen to Gurbaani sometimes and like, or what— I knew the writing piece a little bit, but to me, they kind of all kind of connect. Yeah.

00:35:26 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, it’s like, how do you listen to that resistance in yourself and like, and somehow turn it around to give you the energy to do that because you know that when you do, it’s going to like help that resistance, you know? Yeah. Because like that’s when you need it the most. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, there are some days where I’m like, I want to journal, but the physical act of like reaching to my nightstand and picking up a pen and opening it up, it’s like, how do I like just bridge? Because yeah, once I like get started, it’s like, “Oh, this is easy. Why didn’t I do this ages ago?” But once, yeah.

SPEAKER_GS

Right.

SPEAKER_SB

It’s just like, it’s ridiculous. I don’t know. And I think our brains are moving more and more away from, in terms of like the speed and the way we think, away from like what writing or reading does. Like it feels harder to do that after you’ve been on social media, or after you’ve been in like the swirl of whatever we’re in, our days, doing. Yeah. Anyway.

00:36:44 SPEAKER_GS

Completely, yeah.

00:36:45 SPEAKER_SB

I’m really curious about like the energy work that you said you’re getting into. I’m really curious if you want to talk more about that and what that’s been doing for you.

00:36:59 SPEAKER_GS

It’s hard to describe. It’s been a kind of weird journey, much, much, much longer. That’s like its own 10 hour conversation. But let’s see, what feels like, what feels like something that feels tangible to share? And that like, makes sense.

00:37:16 SPEAKER_SB

And I guess maybe like a question that can go in tandem with that is like, how have you found healing and nourishment in respect to your different identities?

00:37:31 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah.

00:37:32 SPEAKER_SB

And like, just kind of thinking about maybe energy work, like is it something that is, yeah, do you find it nourishing and how?

00:37:44 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah. Yeah, I would say, okay— I feel like I have a couple of thoughts. Well, okay, I’ll start with this, which is my, like I said, I wanna be Oprah. One of the best things she said that always sticks with me is, I don’t know if it was from Maya Angelou, but it was either her, or Maya, or someone else, because she had so many people of wisdom she would interact with all the time. She was the best. She was the best. Anyways, so she said, like, “You got to listen out for life’s whispers”. Because life is constantly whispering to you. Like we were talking about people who know they maybe aren’t listening to that calling, right? And then she added to it, and she said, “When you don’t listen to the whisper, life will like come up—.” Do you know this?

00:38:51 SPEAKER_SB

I’m sorry, I’m getting distracted by this. Let me—

00:38:54 SPEAKER_GS

What is that?

00:38:57 SPEAKER_SB

I just noticed…

00:38:58 SPEAKER_GS

Do you have a UFO?

00:38:59 SPEAKER_SB

It’s life whispering at me. No, it’s like a fan thing that’s on. Let me, it keeps like swiveling. And so let me like stop it at one spot because it’s really distracting.

SPEAKER_GS

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_SB

Okay. All right. Okay, sorry to interrupt. So.

SPEAKER_GS

It’s okay.

SPEAKER_SB

Life whispering.

00:39:42 SPEAKER_GS

Life whispering, yeah. Yeah, and so she said, “When life whispers and you don’t listen, you’ll come and get a, you know, a thunk on the head. When you don’t listen to the thunk on the head, you’ll get knocked down”. And that’s the more like drastic version of it. But like, I think throughout my life, I’ve sort of had like different obsessions or different like really intensely like engaged into something. And I found myself doing that with like, people who are mediums, like who would talk to people who passed over or had some sort of like beyond this world, kind of connection to spirit or something like that. Like I watched all of, what was it? I didn’t watch all of the Long Island Medium, but I’ve watched a lot of, I went to go see her in person. She came to Sacramento. Tyler Henry, the celebrity, the, yeah, celebrity medium in LA. Just like found myself reading book after book after book. And there were a couple moments and like things started to connect and started, I guess, to like lean into that. So that’s like the, I guess, short story. And there’s something extremely validating there for me that as I’ve like talked to other people who’ve been trying to help me unfold the world of beyond what we can see here and touch with our physical senses. Like it’s just been very validating, whether it’s like liking someone, why am I being drawn to them? Why am I physically even being drawn to a random stranger that maybe is in a large group? Why that person? Or why that thing? And just giving validation to, well, everyone— not everyone’s being drawn to that. So there must be some reason by design that I’m being guided to engage with that person or engage with that topic, you know? But so, there is some part that’s nurturing and healing, but with me, cause I feel things so deeply, there’s always so much longing. And like I said, I like to get to the end of the story. So there’s a lot of pain, I think, and imposter syndrome-ing that is associated with this journey. So in the moments that like I’ve done some energy work on people, I’m like, “Oh! This. Is. It!” And then there are other moments when I see where other people are and where I want to be, not just where they are, but where I wanna be, where I deeply long to be, then I think there’s like a pain that I draw back to myself. So it’s something I’m working on, but it’s that reframing I think of like, “Okay, the longing is there for a reason,” and just like hearing that, you know? But it’s, yeah.

00:43:08 SPEAKER_SB

When I see where they are right now and where I want to be, are you saying longing in relation to that person or longing just for yourself and like where you want to be?

00:43:22 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, it’s usually more, like if I take a class and we’re all working on kind of intuitive development and yeah, that’s probably the context, or like actually, you know, because the world works in this way, we are guide— I have a lot of friends who are, who also are in this world, but they’re, you know, at a place that I’m not at. It’s not like intimate longing to be with people. It’s more like, “Oh man, you did this thing so easily that I have been doing,” trying to meditate every day for months and it’s not working or whatever. Does that make sense? Yeah. More simply put, it’s like if someone was really good at soccer and you’re like, dang it, I can never kick the ball without hitting myself in the face. It’s that feeling.

00:44:22 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting to think about. I mean, like, intuition. I guess I’m more— most familiar with energy work in terms of like, I don’t know, like, using energy to like heal people, not so much in terms of like medium sort of stuff, or in terms of like energy work in terms of, yeah, building that intuition. But it’s interesting to think of it as a skill that you develop. It like transports me to like some sort of fantasy world where like people are using their magic powers, but they require, it requires skill and practice and all that.

00:45:10 SPEAKER_GS

Well, no, I can add to that if it’s okay. I think part of what I, part of what I grew up with, and this connects back to Sikh things. I mean, there’s so much, this is like such an expansive topic. So it’s probably too much for this interview. But like, I grew up with hearing about sants [saints], and sants who were revered and sometimes could make miracles happen, you know, or new things. And I, and so there was a difference growing up from my mom, but like my family of like revering other people. And I think what I’m learning in these spiritual development classes is like, that’s within all— like that power. And it’s not even power. It’s like.

00:46:02 SPEAKER_SB

Right.

00:46:02 SPEAKER_GS

This is you as a human being, as you understand it, but you’re actually this big, let me just like show you that. Why don’t you show yourself that, like who you really are is this much. And it’s not just those five people, that were held up on the pedestal, but it’s like you have that power within you. So.

00:46:24 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s… cause in a way, like, I don’t know, I’ve been trying to do like kind of more intuition meditations lately and the more I practice it, the more it— it feels kind of supernatural at first, but then the more you do it, it’s like, this just feels the most natural, but to describe it feels so weird— like it’s very hard to describe, and so it makes the logical side of our brain maybe— the only way we can understand it is by describing it in these magical terms. But to experience it, it feels quite natural.

SPEAKER_GS

Yes.

SPEAKER_SB

So, interesting.

00:47:17 SPEAKER_GS

Can I say one more thing?

00:47:17 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah.

00:47:19 SPEAKER_GS

Well, it’s funny because when this all was unfolding for me, I was talking to a spiritual mentor. And it was very early on, but I remember sort of like in angst being like, “No, like I don’t want this. I already came out as queer, like I can’t come out as like a spiritual woo-woo now.” Like I just I did enough, you know. But there is some deep things. It’s gonna happen. Yeah, slowly but surely. But it’s also becoming increasingly normal. I mean, within minutes, you were able to connect. And I don’t think that’s by accident, I don’t think that’s uncommon. It’s like, people are all, I think a lot of us are seeking and connecting.

00:48:14 SPEAKER_SB

Yes, yes. And it’s very cool. Like I think we’re all, yeah. I think the pandemic was definitely a catalyst for so many people just finally pausing, but also like, whether they were able to pause or not, just like looking internally because all of a sudden, there’s just so much pressure from all directions. So like, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, so I think that’s one good thing or really cool thing that’s come out. Yeah.

00:48:55 SPEAKER_GS

Oh, yeah.

00:48:55 SPEAKER_SB

Intense, like, struggle across so many people. So my last question for you is, what does healing feel like to you in your own mind, spirit, and body?

00:49:13 SPEAKER_GS

Yeah, that’s a great question to end on. I mean, really, it’s like, it connects really closely to that first conversation that we started off with of like having identities that feel like they are your everything. And then being like, “Oh yeah, that is,”— you know, and like kind of forgetting, because it no longer holds that importance because we’ve gone through that journey. And it’s not linear, and it’s not, you know, but like different moments at a time, it’s like it doesn’t hold the same weight because we’ve like moved through some large chunk of it. There’s always more chunks, in my experience and understanding, but then to carry the weight for so long and then be like, oh, actually I’m okay now. And like in that okayness that unfolds, and this is a bit abstract, but in the okayness that unfolds, I think then we can look towards the light more and love cats and plants and sunshine. Like those things happen tangentially, I think, of like letting go, like holding, holding, holding, doing deep work, reflection, prayer, paath [recitation of Gurbaani], you know, the whole thing, friendship, like everything, and then releasing and creating space to see more light and then doing it all over again for different parts of ourselves. And I guess in like, trying to bring the conversation back to queerness, like in healing queerness and Sikhi. I mean, I think I’ve said it before, like my desire is so deeply that people know that there’s no conflict between these two identities at all. And it’s like, I don’t like to use the word, but like birthright to have both, you know, to be able to hold both and whatever, you know, whatever else on top of that, whether that’s, I don’t know, like polyamory, or not partnering at all. When it, whatever feels non-normative within the Sikh context like it’s normative. It’s okay, like it is your life path, but you know for me like practicing. I always find that I’m like practicing multiple faith things at the same time. Like, it’s okay. It’s okay. There’s like you can hold more than one. Like, so I got lost, but that’s something I wanted to say. In the context of Sikhi and queerness, I think that really sums it up.

00:52:44 SPEAKER_SB

That was great.

SPEAKER_GS

Yeah

SPEAKER_SB

Sweet. Yeah. Any concluding thoughts about, yeah, maybe what you hope this interview does for the community or contributes to, or just any final thoughts about anything we’ve talked about?

00:53:05 SPEAKER_GS

Oh, well, just immense gratitude for you and prabh, and I mean, you took a lot of time. I feel like you said you got to take a lot more time now— let me know if I can help. I mean, I spoke.

00:53:21 SPEAKER_SB

Okay, we’re all getting paid to do this. So it’s not like— yeah, it’s, yeah. But the— there is a lot of labor that goes into putting together an archive, that is for sure.

00:53:37 SPEAKER_GS

I can’t wait to hear about it. Yeah, no, just a lot of gratitude and I can’t wait to see what comes of it. But I think whatever it is already and whatever it will be is gonna be so beautiful because each person is so unique. And so the diversity of thoughts and experiences that will be displayed will just speak to so many people, you know, and that’s just what’s needed. So, I can’t have hopes for something that already exists and it’s doing the thing, you know. It’s already just, it’s a great idea. And I hope it reaches wide. And I hope that, I don’t know at what stage you guys are sharing. I looked at the website and I think I saw some of the other transcripts. So, but it’d be great to, I don’t know how you guys were planning on sharing them and we can talk about this offline, but we can definitely use the Queer Sikh Network Instagram and just, you know, we don’t have any content. We can flood, we can just flood quotes as content and, you know, I’m sure prabh has a million really great ideas as well. But just, just throwing that out there.

00:54:59 SPEAKER_SB

Yeah, I’ll jot it down because, yeah, yeah, we can talk also after, I guess, yeah. Any final words? All right.

00:55:11 SPEAKER_GS

You’re good.

00:55:11 SPEAKER_SB

[I’ll] stop the recording. Okay.

00:55:13 SPEAKER_GS

Stop that recording. Okay.