Sundeep Morrison

Interview with Sundeep Morrison Part 1 of 2

00:00:05 SPEAKER_MM

Okay, so just, you know, to kind of start off to kind of honor and respect one another in this space, and also narrate as a narrator, I want to share a little bit about myself, and hopefully that will give you some sort of understanding of what the project is, and then you can formulate how you want to arrive with sharing your story with us. So my name is Manu. I go by she/her/they pronouns. I currently live in Los Angeles and [am] a native to California, born and raised in San Jose. And so I have an endearing relationship with NorCal versus SoCal. But yeah, just in terms of like constantly being around the Panjabi Sikh community and stuff, kind of, you know, my home was the space where a lot of folks from Panjab came directly to our home as the first home, like the first arrival, you know, was the spot of the first arrival, and so I’ve been around like all different ages and it’s really informed kind of who I am and the work that I do now. And so I have an evolving relationship with not just with Sikhi in general, but also with LGBTQIA+. And I don’t know what that means for me, you know, and I haven’t really defined it, which I’m okay with. I think it’s evolving and that’s beautiful because I’m finally in a crack, if that makes sense. And I like it there.

00:01:57 SPEAKER_MM

So yeah, so it kind of, and this project was happening, I met prabh and stuff, and then they were looking for research assistants and stuff, and I applied, and so here we are, doing this. And it’s kind of interesting because I’m also a doctoral student in anthropology and social change, kind of coming into this from a different angle. So my research is on youth sexualities in Panjab. And I really didn’t kind of situate or position myself into my work, even though you should as you’re sort of developing how you’re gonna enter the field or whatever, and so I’m sort of theorizing it, I’m engaging with it academically, but now I’m also very personal and very communal with it too. So all of these things are happening to me. So that’s kind of how I’m arriving into the space and with these conversations and hearing these stories.

00:02:56 SPEAKER_SM

I think that’s beautiful.

00:02:58 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, what sort of interests you in engaging in the story, storytelling capacity?

00:03:07 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think that, you know, my journey has been kind of a coming back to Sikhi in a lot of ways. And so just a brief overview: I was born and raised in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and out in the prairies. And you know my upbringing was through my grandmother. I was raised by my— my naniji, my maternal grandmother lived with us. So I spent a bulk of my time while my parents were trying to carve out a life. And so I think I had the feeling before I had the words for my identity. And then I think at the time, too, of just the journey of feeling deep connections to Panjabi culture and then Sikhi, but also having these feelings that I didn’t have words to; it felt like almost like a deep inner conflict. And I was also raised Namdhari— and we can get deeper in this— but I was raised with a Namdhari ideology [I don’t identify with it or practice it], which is now I identify it as a cult [to me it felt like growing up in a cult]. It’s a subset of Sikhi. And so it, so yeah, it was just deep feelings of the more I came into myself the further I felt from having a place in our community as a culture and as a religion. And so I thought “Oh well everything feels like it’s in conflict I’ll just pull back.” And so now what was appealing is that when I see siblings like prabh and like you doing the work and it’s seeing shades of us in spaces where I felt like I had no space. And so that just on a soul selfish level, it helps me reconnect with parts of myself that I felt like I had no place. So that’s why this time in community feels so appealing, but it also is very healing at the same time.

00:05:06 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, it’s a kind of surfacing, you know, letting it sort of exist finally outside of just our faults. You know? Yeah. So sharing your life story can be a very personal, vulnerable experience. What’s something you hope to sort of gain with sharing your story or hope that others will share your story?

00:05:39 SPEAKER_SM

Knowing that all parts of us can exist in all the spaces and that we don’t have to make ourselves smaller or suffocate parts of ourselves that deserve to grow just like the rest of us.

00:06:03 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, everything and anything. Those are sort of some of the questions that we have. So we can kind of arrive to it. It’s sort of been a more broader space. But if you have any questions or clarifications.

00:06:35 SPEAKER_SM

[looking up, in thought] I’m just grateful that it exists.

00:06:38 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. There’s something about the archive that is very futuristic that I’m finding a place for understanding and open political, social strength that is. Yeah. So shall we create the future?

00:07:09 SPEAKER_SM

Oh, you just gave me chills. Yes. Yes, mighty sister, let’s create the future. Oh my gosh.

00:07:17 SPEAKER_MM

[giggling] Yeah, no pressure, no pressure.

00:07:20 SPEAKER_SM

[laughing] No pressure. 

00:07:26 SPEAKER_MM

Oh boy. All right. So I’m going to start with the general introduction and then give a little bit of a project description and then jump into sort of what our first question is. And then stop me if anything needs to be clarified. I can repeat the question and all that. Okay. 

00:07:51 SPEAKER_MM

So this is Manu Multani. Today is August 31st, 2023. I’m interviewing for the first time Sundeep Morrison, who uses they/them pronouns. This interview is taking place at Los Angeles, California and online via TheirStory. This interview is sponsored by Jakara and is part of the Storytelling and Settlement through Sikh LGBTQIA+ Oral Histories Project. The purpose of the research is to document the lived experiences of Sikhs in the United States who are from LGBTQIA+ backgrounds. We wanna provide a more complete history of Sikhs through interviews that ask LGBTQIA+ Sikhs about their different experiences, how LGBTQIA+ Sikhs understand themselves and their communities, and how LGBTQIA+ Sikhs make homes in the US. Unlike a job interview or survey, an oral history interview is all about you and your life. We can talk about anything you want and in any order. So we’re going to start with a little bit of a broad question. So when you think back to your experiences of growing up, tell me a little bit about what comes to mind to you. To you, are there common stories, relationships, sights, maybe even smells that come to your mind that help describe growing up?

00:09:28 SPEAKER_SM

So we always had music in our house. I always considered music our other family member. My mom was a classically trained musician, but she would do Keertan every Sunday, Keertan Seyva de Gurdwaaraa [musical devotional  service at place of worship]. And so there was always either Bollywood tracks or Surinder Kaur playing or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan’s music, always, always music. So it was a very noisy household that I grew up in. And the smell of dhoof— incense— brings me back. Sometimes it’s difficult for me to smell that because it brings up so much. That and the sweet and spicy you know it’s like the undertones of onion, garlic, and ginger were always permeating through the house. And the smell of tarhkaa [beginning sauté for many Panjabi dishes] just attaching itself to our clothes. Those are the kind of smells and the sounds that I grew up in.

00:10:34 SPEAKER_MM

Is there sort of like the music or the smells that you sort of try to recreate or sort of share or revisit?

00:10:45 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah— so it’s, it’s been a little over a year since I lost my mom. And so, smell is such— is so deeply part of my sense memory. And so when I miss her, you know, and I’m not a big chaah [tea] drinker, but I’ll just make it, you know? Just cause I miss her, the masaalay waali chaah [spiced tea], and you know, playing her songs just so I can feel closer to her, my beeji.

00:11:15 SPEAKER_MM

So you grew up, you said, with your biji and your mom. Who else was in your household? 

00:11:23 SPEAKER_SM

So I had my dad, and then I had an older brother, and I have a younger brother. And so we all grew up in the Northeast in Calgary.

00:11:37 SPEAKER_MM

And so what are some stories you may have heard like from your communities or your family growing up that sort of made you like understand yourself or perhaps question yourself as it relates to Sikhi?

00:11:56 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I mean, my grandmother— it was very interesting. So growing up, as far back as I can remember, we were part of the sect of Namdhari, which it it was very different. So we would go to regular Gurdwaara on Sundays, but then Saturday evenings, we would have Naam Simran at our house. And there was only two families that were practicing Namdhari at the time in Calgary. So we would go to their house one weekend, they would come to our house. And I just remember my grandmother was a devout Sikh. She wore her Kirpan, and she was actually my deepest connection to my Sikhi because I shared a bedroom with her. So waking up in the morning I would hear her— you know, I would fall asleep hearing her do her Rehraas and her evening prayers and I would wake up to her doing Naam Simran. So she was my connector who would sit down and through Panjabi kind of break down what Gurbaani was telling us. And so her and my dad had a kind of a deep conflict because there were two types of Sikhi that were being presented, one that centered patriarchy, men— and then one that centered Guru Saahib [God, Gurus, scripture]. So that was very interesting. And then there was a certain set of rules and parameters of how one should appear and look and what the power structure was. So it was very interesting kind of seeing two spectrums of Sikhi.

00:13:55 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, yeah. And so which side are you saying or were you sort of understanding Sikhi to be more patriarchal, which one sounds like was more maternal?

00:14:09 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I would say Namdhari, because it’s all men. It’s men in power. And it was now, again— the more I kind of revisit, I’m like, wow, that was, it feels, we were taught it was completely antithetical to what Sikhi is, where we center Guru Saahib. And here we are, we were bowing to these men. And so I always feel like the indoctrination that was happening, my grandmother was secretly undoing [chuckles]. You know, she would have sidebars and say, you know, “This is really how it is.” And so we were like, “Oh, yeah, okay.” And, and it was in my teens, where we moved from Calgary to Toronto, where there was a bigger Namdhari population where they had their own Gurdwaara. That’s when we became— it was really apparent that this is— this isn’t how things should be. And so that was a really tough time. And it did make me question a lot about the Sikhi I was presented versus the kind of the truth of Sikhi.

00:15:15 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, so it sounded like you also had someone who was like, you need to interrogate this. Don’t just sort of like follow whatever’s like sort of happening in front of you. There’s different relationships that you can have. 

00:15:30 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah. 

00:15:32SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, so, it seems like you were also possibly thinking about how your relationship to Sikhi is going to evolve and change— were you sort of contemplating that at that time? Or were you like, this is who I am, this is how I want to build community, this is kind of where I need to enter. And were you even thinking about sort of gender and sexuality at that time?

00:16:00 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think, and this is something I share, of me probably around age even seven or eight, you know, and my parents, I think they just chalked up my tomboy years as growing up with brothers, right? But I just felt such a deeper identity of— even then, of how masculine and feminine was presented, right? And so I, there’s one really clear memory is that it was like the dreaded walk to matha thayk [prostrate] would always give me so much anxiety. I remember I would sweat. I would sweat and I’d be like okay I have to make sure the ponche [hems] of my salwaar [pants] are facing forward and that you know and especially going through puberty, I felt so much like you want to conceal and hide and I wanted to get matha thayk-ing over with as fast as I could because it felt like the world’s eyes were on you. And so I remember it was maybe 13— oh yeah, it was after we moved to Toronto. It was like 14. And you know I matha thayk-ed and we were eating Langar and I was sitting next to my grandmother and there was an auntie that always just would nitpick everything from my appearance to what I was eating. She just had it out for me. And so we’re sitting there in the Langar Hall, my biji and I sitting next to each other, and she came and sat in front of us. And she goes to my grandmother, she goes, you know, “Ehda kuch karna phehna [Something will need to be done about this one]—and she’s like, you know, like, “You have to do something.”
I was like, “Ki gal aa [What’s the issue]?” She said, “Mundeya vangu thurr diya [She’s walking like a boy].” And I just felt my face get hot. And I was just so embarrassed and so angry, but stunned. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that feeling where you’re frozen, because you feel so much. And then my grandmother just said, “Phir ki [so what]?” and she ate and she got up and she left. And then my grandmother turned to me, and she was like, you know— we would go to mandir [Hindu place of worship] sometimes. She was like, “Asi mandir jaane hain na? [We go to mandir, don’t we?]” I’m like, “Yeah.” She’s like, “Shiv Ji de kol, aadmi te janaani da roop ah [Shiv Ji [a Hindu deity] has both the form of a man and woman].” And I said, “Yeah.” She goes, “Saareyaan vich ah, tere ‘ch koi nuks nahi. [This quality is in everybody, there is no flaw in you].”

00:18:17 SPEAKER_SM

And it was that moment— you know, she had like maybe an eighth grade education— but it was like that moment has stuck with me. And I’m like [laughs], you know, and that was enough. That was enough for me to go, “You know what, I’m okay in this moment. Like it’ll be alright,” you know what I mean? And so, yeah, I think the excavation of that, of being at odds with myself and then her passing when I was 17 was just such a devastating blow because I felt like I lost my best friend, I’ve lost a parent, and my biggest advocate.

00:19:01 SPEAKER_MM

But their legacy lives with you. 

00:19:03SPEAKER_SM

Yeah. 

00:19:04 SPEAKER_MM

So much like richness and gold and yeah, it’s just so much. Yeah. Did you like sort of think then like about coming out or was there a coming out for you? I’m not saying it’s essential that a coming out needs to happen, but I’m just sort of curious if there was sort of like, was that sort of the interest for you to kind of like then start exploring that more? Or were you like, “Oh, I don’t know, I’m not gonna define it.” I don’t [know] like you mentioned earlier, didn’t have sort of language, you know? Was it that sort of scenario for you?

00:19:47 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think for me, it was just coming out to myself of the more I learned of going, “Oh, you know what? Yeah, I do feel this way. And I am attracted just as much as I am to boys, to girls.” And “Oh, that does have a name” and, and my identity. So, I did feel at odds because it was, you know, but it was also like, I think someone, I think I read it somewhere, it was like, you know, what part of yourself did you have to kill in order to survive? And that now we’re trying to breathe life back into. Right? Some playing the part of the good, long-haired Indian girl, Panjabi Sikh kurhi [girl], that fit the aesthetic. So then that alleviated any critique or criticism. And, but I do remember it was really closer to even moments in middle school and high school of going, “Oh, you know what? I do feel this way.” But I— you know definitely not having any conversations with my parents or anybody in my family I didn’t feel because there was such a pressure, right. My dad, you know, was a dastaar [turban]-wearing Sikh, my mom did keertan and so we were this quasi— maybe from the outside it was like a pious religious family. And so really the pressures of just fitting in. And I knew that there was free— like there was freedom on the other side, and that would be through my education. I was picking the farthest universities. I was like, my ticket out of here or to be closer to myself is gonna be my education.

00:21:33 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, I can totally relate to that. It seemed like college campuses were the only source, the only way where we could live by ourselves.

00:21:44 SPEAKER_SM

Oh yes, I mean when I, you know, and I knew I wanted to be a storyteller, you know, and I would say whether it was on the page, in front of the camera, behind it, or something. My biji planted the seeds of storytelling, you know, even with Sakhis, and I remember that that was the first thing of learning about life lessons through Sakhis, you know, and just her— the way she would tell a story. And we’ve— you know, I was just like, “Oh, this makes me feel something.” But yeah, moving from Toronto, and then we relocated to Windsor. And that was another thing of going to New York. And my parents actually saying, “Yes,” sending me to film school in New York, but that was so liberating because I was nobody’s daughter, I was nobody’s sister. And that was another thing too, of, on a socioeconomic level, we were maybe like middle class-ish, but there was a time where we spent two years living in a basement when we landed in Toronto you know. And so but if that was really when my my especially through my dad it was like reinforcing caste pride you know. And it was— caste was presented to me under the guise of tribal identity, right? And so really excavating that we may not have this, but at least we’re this, but in New York, it was like all these things were stripped away and I could just, and I felt like I had come to like the queer epicenter of the world. It was amazing. I was like, this is awesome. You know, to be there, it was very liberating.

00:23:31 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, yeah. I have so many follow-up questions. So like, yeah, you know, you talked about Sakhis for a little bit, and I am curious if there are some that sort of you can share that resurface, and if not, that’s fine. And then my other question was also sort of like your relationship also more broadly with your siblings, and how that kind of represented itself in terms of maybe gender lines. But yeah.

00:24:04 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah. Yeah, I think definitely my household— it took so little to be considered an amazing son, and it took so little to be considered a terrible daughter. So I felt like there were two justice systems. There was one for my brothers and then there was one for me. And that was really, really hard to grow up because I think like my relationship to anger— I always say like I knew violence and anger before I met you know love and kindness. It was really hard. That was tough. I remember when I didn’t have words for my feelings of just like you know like doing Ardaas and like just praying like “Why wasn’t I made a boy? It’d be so much easier if I were just a boy,” and be able to live because I felt like, okay, in a girl body, clearly my purpose was, wasn’t to be educated so I could be strong or I could have that knowledge. It was so that I could be marriage material. So I almost felt like it was just upping my market value. And that was one thing that was abundantly clear of like, “You’re going to eventually belong to somebody else. So we need to make sure your sticker price is good enough.” And that and— and whereas my brothers I felt like they could you know have that liberation and they could for lack of better words fuck up and make mistakes and live and go and see and be in the world. But yeah, that was really tough. 

And so that was hard. And then also it was just knowing my identity. It just makes me sad, but it’s okay. I don’t— I’m not close to my brothers and I don’t think there’s ever been a closeness there. And Rakhrhi was yesterday, you know? [laughs at the coincidence, looks away sentimentally] And so I just remember feeling deeply lonely because there was always a yearning for siblings. [voice wavers] And I know— I felt like the more I came into myself, the further I got from them. And it’s painful. But— and then I allow, you know, it hurts because I know that my queerness definitely changed that relationship. And the more I claimed parts of myself, the harder it was. So there is distance. I’m not close to my brothers or my father. And that’s why the loss of my mom was so devastating, because she was like a father figure to me. But I am grateful for— that’s why my chosen family is so sacred. But I always— yeah, that’s something I always longed for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:51 SPEAKER_MM

I have a younger brother too and I feel like the pressure was just always there. You know, the pressure not only to be this emblematic daughter or sister or whatever, you know all swung up in these moral limitations. The pressure was also sort of like, “How do I get them to understand how is it that this system, this patriarchy is damaging all of us?” You know, this way of thinking is damaging all of us. Like, how do you, how can you build that thread? It sounds like your grandmother and your mom were the kind of vessels through which you were trying to do that.

00:28:41 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, yeah, and that’s why it’s— you know, chosen family so, so healing, you know. And— and it is hard because I think that I’ve always had a deep relationship to my Sikhi, you know. And it was— and now the more that I dive in, it’s like, wow, we use this, we’ve weaponized so much, like just how faith is weaponized, you know, for control, for fear, for all of it. But it was so hard because I felt like it’s either or. And especially there’s so much gravity on outward appearance too. And that was a lesson too of, you know, of even my dad watching somebody who looked the part, but then who was living in a very different way than what our Gurus wanted us— you know, and that’s been very difficult to me is because I feel like I’m discounted so easily in spaces before I even step into them because I took my partner’s last name. So culturally, it’s like Sundeep Morrison and “Ehnu Panjabi da ki pata. Eh dekh goreyaan da last name— the last, you know, or whatever [What do they know of Panjabi? Look, they have a white person’s last name]. And then because my relationship to my hair has been very, very deep and nuanced and tricky. And, you know, it’s so deep. So all of these things— I’m excavating.

00:30:30 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, through your unlearning of your experience with Sikhi, you’re also learning and rehabilitating your experience with Sikhi. Tell me more about your relationship with your hair.

00:30:46 SPEAKER_SM

I think that for so long, I kept my hair long because it was part of Sikhi and that’s just— there was no question of it. But I just remember feeling almost like it was this mass. And I think with my masculine identity, it was such a war with it. And just feeling comfortable in my skin of being forced— essentially forced to keep it. I think it’s beautiful if you arrive at a space and you arrive there organically, but I think that, you know, like— I just felt like I had to look a certain way and present a certain way. Or I was just discounted, or I was bringing shame upon my family, or I wasn’t being a good Sikh. And so I guess I feel most euphoric with a buzz cut at this juncture in my life. It makes me feel the most at ease and peace with my body. In my non-binary-ness, where I feel like my masculine and my feminine and neither, nothing, and all of it, and none of it can all live. But I think it was being forced because, you know, and like our culture, even long hair is such a deep sign of beauty, you know. And aside from the religious aspect, hair is so precious. And so it was really tough. And I think that was a really big blow for my parents too. Because for me, cutting my hair and buzzing it, it was, it felt liberating. And I carried a lot of shame of like even feeling good in my body, you know, and there may be a version of me in the future that keeps my hair, I have no idea. You know, that could be part of it. But at this juncture, it’s just, my euphoria is when I’m, when I can just feel comfortable in my skin. But that was something that was very much thrust upon all of us as kids. And there was no rhyme or, like, there was no depth. Like now I see, like, you know, the depth and the explaining and and all of the knowledge versus when someone just says, “Hey, this is how it’s done, do it this way.” 

00:33:16 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah Yeah, I definitely struggled with that a lot too growing up, where it was like, these are just rules you just follow, and nobody knows why. Nobody knows why. Yeah. And I never grew up with a relationship with my hair. It was just sort of like, it always has to be tied back. Like for me, that was like the thing. Like my dad would always say, “You have to tie it back.” You know?                

00:33:44 SPEAKER_SM

Mine too, yeah.

00:33:46 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, it’s like such a controlling element that’s tied to our gender and sort of our presentation and all of that. So yeah, it’s interesting how these like symbolic things kind of have a direct relationship to Sikhi and how we sort of embody it or not so much.

00:34:09 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, it just added to my dysphoria. Now, thank goodness for therapy, but it just really added to my dysphoria. And I think that sometimes fellow Sikhs that meet me or see me, you know, and it’s like, mostly with the elders, is that’s one of their first questions of like, “Why don’t you keep your hair?” You know, And I’m like, “Okay, I’ll meet you where you’re at.” [laughs] And I can have that conversation, but it’s like, if someone has no kind of viewpoint of identity, right, or queerness, or even any inkling of it, then for sure they’re not going to understand how deeply things can affect you, especially from your body aesthetic. Yeah.

00:34:59 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, menu vi keh vaar lagda keh, you know, ohnaa di samajh thorhi jahi limited aah, par fir mainu ehda vi lagda, like limited aah, ja tusi chandey nahi? [Yeah, it also seems to me, you know, their understanding is a little limited, but then it occurs to me, “Is it limited or you don’t want to know?”] You know, it’s really hard. It’s really hard to meet them where they’re at because It’s also like, “Is this a teaching moment? Is this a learning moment for you? So can I explain that to you, or no? Like, is this door closed, you know?” Yeah.

00:35:27 SPEAKER_SM

100%. I think that that’s like where I have to do my own capacity check. Of like— does this feel like a genuine question? Like, you know, like, “Tusi sacchi puchh dey aah? Jaa tusi pehla toh hi muddh toh apna mann banaa leyaa, ve mai ki aah, mei kaun aah, tey tusi mainu koi debate de vich ley aauna chandey aah? Kyu ki debate lyi— eh conversation lyi mere energy [nahi] hai, uncle, or auntie. [Are you asking truly? Or did you make up your mind beforehand – of what I am and who I am – and now you’ve come to pick a debate with me? Because for a debate, for that conversation, I don’t have energy.]” You know what I mean? And I think it trips them up, too. And that’s always interesting, is like, when they ask, and I’m like, “Yeah. Mere mooh javaani Ardaas ratti hoiya. [Ardaas is steeped onto my tongue and memory.] And it’s not just ratti hoiya [and it’s not just mindlessly memorized], but it’s because that’s how my biji taught us all the Gurus, right? And so I’m like, “Yeah, like jado mai Ardaas kardi aah, oh mere tey, mere Parmathmaa daa conversation chal rahi aah — saadi gal-baat chal rahi aah. Or mai shaheeda nu parnam kar rahi ha. Mai saaray Guruaan nu shardha naal bulaa rahi aah. Or eh ya meri raab murrey meri benthi. [When I do Ardaas, They are, my Divine and I are in conversation – our conversation is going on. I pay respects to our martyrs/witnesses of our faith. I am calling on our Gurus with deep humility. And this is my ask to my Divine before Them.]”  You know what I mean? Like, that’s my conversation. And I can have that whatever way. I don’t even have to start it a certain way. But it’s very interesting that I’m— you know, you can kind of smell the bullshit sometimes when someone’s – ohna da dimaag band aah [their mind is closed] — and they just want to pull you into some nonsense, but it is an interesting time too.

00:37:04 SPEAKER_MM

So within those struggles how do you sort of find your Sangat, how do you find community, how do you sort of build that for yourself?

00:37:14 SPEAKER_SM

Oh my gosh I’ve been— I feel so fortunate. So, I was just in Rochester and it was for the month, oh my god, what was it? Yeah, it was after they were out of school, but before my birthday. And so my sibling, who also identifies on the queer spectrum, Rajul, put together a Sikh exhibit and wanted to include queer Sikh voices. And she and I had been in community for a while, never met in person. And a bunch of us queer Sikhs got together in Rochester, and it was so healing. And it was queer, Sikh— a queer, Sikh gathering. And it felt like a viah [wedding]. It felt like asi sarey viah lyi kattay aaya [we all came together for a wedding]. You know, we stayed up late talking about everything, and we did a photo shoot, and that was so healing. I hated taking pictures. I was like, mai kadi nahi photo le aandi sigi [I would never let others take pictures of me] because I was like “Oh, now I have to wait and I have to wear this and do this.” And it was like the first time. But we had such a deep conversation just about Sikhi. And so what’s healing for me, [tears up] is I feel so lucky that I met my siblings. Mainu merey veer bhenn mil gaye. Jerhe mainu dekh sakday aah, mainu pyaar kar sakday aah. Tey naalay mainu, eh meysuss karde aah bay Parmaathmaa tey Waheguruj Ji dekho pyaar haigaa mere lyi. Jiven vee mai haa— mai mainu aapne aap nu baadlna nahi pehnaa. Tey pher oh sukhoon mildaa. Kay tusee naal ekkaatey bhey sakdey haan. Sikhi baaray gal kar sakday aah, itihaas baray soch sakdey, gal-baat kar sakday aah [That I met my brothers and sisters [siblings]. Those who can see me, can love me. And with me, they can empathize with me about the Divine and Waheguru having love for me. Whichever way that I am— I don’t have to change myself. And from that, I get peace. And with you [with them] we all can come together and sit together [share in community]. That we can talk about Sikhi – we can think about history and talk about it].” To have siblings that are so deeply well-versed in Sikhi that are sharing that knowledge, and it’s so healing of like, “Oh wow, I never knew this is what was written here, or this is what this meant.”

00:39:34 SPEAKER_SM

So it was just really healing because it’s Sangat, but the deepest form of Sangat. And I have never, those are the safest I feel like in Sikh spaces, is queer Sikh spaces. And that’s something I’m healing because I still can’t walk into a Gurdwaara with ease. And that may never happen, It’s okay. It’s like those spaces are very triggering. But it was so healing to be able to talk about Gurbaani, you know, and for all of us to sit. So yeah, I get emotional just because they’re so beautiful, they’re such beautiful beings. I feel really lucky. [laughs] 

00:40:19 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, And especially when you feel like you don’t exist, they visibilize you. Yeah. And we have these questions, right? Like, we deeply adore and connect and identify with being a Sikh and then if the outside worlds tell us we can’t be. And this is the way we find reconciliation, right? It’s through this. So through these conversations and stuff have you been able to arrive to what Sikhi might mean for you or what being Sikh is or what Sikh means to you?

00:41:10 SPEAKER_SM

So I think I’ve been thinking a lot about Seyva, and not— and I know that, you know, growing up, we see outward Seyva with our community, but I’ve been like, “How am I incorporating Seyva for self?” Veh apne aap dee vee Seyva karnee pehnee aah [That I will have to do some service/caretaking of self too.]. Like how am I incorporating that for myself? And I think boundaries is a form of Seyva for yourself. I think affirming and journaling, like all the things I love doing that pour into me, that’s my self-Seyva. And when that part of me that misses siblingness, I reach out to my chosen family, you know what I mean? And that’s Sangat. And you know just recently I started listening to more Keertan because that was one thing, Namdhari Keertan is done more so in very classical raag, and it’s beautiful. But it’s like reconnecting with those parts. And now, like, you know, if you come to my house, I have no pictures of the Gurus. It was very hard for me to have any iconography because it’s very triggering. And now I’m like slowly bringing small elements and repairing that. So it’s, yeah, so that’s what I’ve just been thinking of. Seyva is a concept in line with how we take care of ourselves.

00:42:51 SPEAKER_MM

And that’s how you sort of live and practice Sikhi for yourself.

00:43:02 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think it’s that and also just the idea of you know it’s as simple as pyaar [love], right? It’s that pyaar. And really like I’ve had to build a relationship with my anger you know. And I think it’s like when someone is struggling with you know, the trans community, queer community, or just identity, that really it’s something they’re having a reckoning inside themselves. That somewhere it’s deeply seated, that they’re finding and fighting themselves. It has less to do with me and more to do with them. Because my Sikhi tells me, and this is what I’m trying to remind myself too of like, my Guru, my Parmathma loves everyone. And my Parmathma, I feel, you know, that when I have my moment with Dharam Raj, that there’s not gonna be a gravitas on more so what I look like, but what were my karam— how did I treat people? How did I treat myself? How did I treat my kids? How did I treat my partner on this earth? You know what I mean? Like that’s where I feel the gravity’s gonna be because there’s so many people that look the part that are doing horrific things. And then like, what is the definition of a good Sikh or a Sikh period? And so it was a lot of the undoing of going, “No, no, no, it’s internal.” The external is beautiful, beautiful. That’s where you land, but you gotta do the inner work first. So that’s what gives me hope.

00:44:59 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, And so what are your thoughts on people like being able to self-identify as Sikhs?

00:45:06 SPEAKER_SM

I think that Sikhi doesn’t belong to anybody, you know what I mean? It doesn’t belong to anybody. I think that there’s been so much gatekeeping and then just my personal experience growing up in a subsect of Sikhi, where there were so many controlling parameters, I think it’s your relationship to God. Whatever— [recording cuts off]

00:45:37 SPEAKER_MM

I lost you. I lost you. Can you hear me? Okay.

00:45:50 SPEAKER_MM

Still have internet.               

Interview with Sundeep Morrison Part 2 of 2

00:00:02 SPEAKER_MM

All right. Okay, we’re starting part two. I think we were talking about your relationship with finding Sikhi in community and Sangat, correct? I think that’s what we were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and also being self-identifying as Sikhs. Like what are your thoughts on self-identifying as Sikh? I think that’s where we are.

00:00:39 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah I think it’s deep because I think that’s where there’s the most gatekeeping from my experience and you know kind of where I’ve landed is that there’s been so many parameters on what it means to be a Sikh. And I think that Sikhi is personal. I think it’s personal because for so long I was taught that oh in order to— if I filled this box and this box and this box then my Sikhi was valid. And if I didn’t, then I wasn’t a Sikh. So now I’m realizing that the core tenets are actually pretty simple, you know? And that the only entity that can judge my relationship to my Sikhi other than myself is Waheguru, period.

00:01:40 SPEAKER_MM

And then, so how do you, so you kind of spoke about, you know, growing up in Canada in various different parts and sort of moving to New York. How do you sort of find, you mentioned finding community in your chosen family now, but how do you sort of find that in new spaces? Because from what I remember, I think you’re in California now.

00:02:11 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, Los Angeles, yep.

00:02:13 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, oh, me too. And so, yeah, so how do you sort of find a community in new places? How do you sort of arrange that for yourself? How does that sort of implicate your own relationship with Sikhi? Does that help it evolve based on where you’re at geographically?

00:02:32 SPEAKER_SM

I think that it can be tricky sometimes and I’ve had to recognize this in myself that I have been so hungry for community. But you know, it’s— it’s hard to find, it’s hard to find community where you feel completely safe, you know. And so I have found like-minded siblings where I feel comfortable. But again in certain spaces where someone doesn’t have, or they’ve already made their mind up about queerness, or what Sikhi should look like. It can feel like being othered all over again.

00:03:21 SPEAKER_MM

And so have you been able to find community in L.A.?

00:03:27 SPEAKER_SM

I am finding community now. I think I’ve been in my bubble for a long time, especially as a parent, I’ve been in my own little bubble and that bubble felt safe, you know? And I still, you know, there’s triggers and traumas of being, you know, in a Gurdwaara space or in a Sangat space, and coming into that space and bringing my fullness, you know, that’s different. And so I’m slowly gauging, and then also letting myself know that you know what, it’s okay. It’s okay to feel discomfort or it’s okay to not want to, you know, be in a space or to visit that space you know like going to the Gurdwaara off peak hours in the middle of the week early in the morning where there’s really nobody there. Because then I know that I don’t have the off chance if I’m getting parshaad, or just sitting in the Langar Hall for a moment, I’m not gonna you know be bombarded with a million questions about what section I’m sitting in or what I look like, you know? So I think it’s been hard, it’s been hard.

00:04:44 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, It also seems like going to the Gurdwaara is very important to you.

00:04:51 SPEAKER_SM

I miss it. I miss, yeah, it makes me, you know, it’s heartbreaking. I miss it, because growing up, it was such a big part of where we congregate, community, faith, all of these things. And then also since my mom’s passing, of just listening to keertan makes me feel closer to her. And so it is tough. And so now I’m like, “Okay, how can I bring those elements?” Because my biji did say, “Wherever you remember God, that is your Gurdwaara. Jithe vi rabb yaad aunda [wherever you remember God], that’s your Gurdwaara. Gurdwaara is anywhere.” Like she used to say, she’s like, “You’re, you know your, saadaa sharir ek Gurdwaara yaa, vich rabb vasta. [Our body too is a Gurdwaara, God is within it].” So, and so I remember these moments of like, “Okay, how can I, where am I at? What are my feelings in my body and how can I bring that to where I am?”

00:06:00 SPEAKER_MM

And so how would you describe your experiences with maintaining a relationship with Sikhi and LGBTQIA+ communities?

00:06:10 SPEAKER_SM

It’s been difficult. I think it’s been difficult. But I have hope, you know, I have hope. And I think that it’s— it’s hard because I remember even early when I did come out to my mom, I was visiting home from college and I just sat her down. And I was like through tears, I just had to like say it out loud to her. You know like, “Mom, this is what I feel, this is what I am.” And you know there was a lot of tears. And I even I don’t think she fully ever understood my identity. But for me— for her to say, “Jiven tenu rabb nay banayaa, ome theek aah. [How the Divine has made you, that is enough/ok].” That was enough. Like that was huge, right? That was enough. She’s never gonna understand pronouns, she was never going to fully wrap her head around my lack of hair— by choice, but I think that you know there was, that was enough for me because I was like, you know what, she sees me.

But it’s been hard because I think the same ideology is like that queerness is a white concept. Veh goreyaa daa kamm aah. Saadey paanth de vich nahee haigaa. Saadee community de vich nahee haigaa, veh eh puraa goreyaa neey baneyaa, saadey vich eh hunda hee nahee [This is white people’s work. It’s not in our panth. It’s not in our community, it’s wholly made by white people, it doesn’t exist in us].” And that’s what, it’s like, no, I think that the most culturally aligned thing we can do is be the most version of ourselves, is live in our fullness. Veh eh sab toh goreyaa toh door cheez aah, jado tusi aapni aasliaat vich rehney aah. Eh hey saadee aslee culture haigee aah, kyu kee ohnaaney aakey saadey desh de vich, ehnaa gandh paaeyaa, tey eh lakeeraa ohna ney banaya mittee de vich [It is the furthest thing from whiteness when you live in your own truth. This has been our true, actual culture. Because after they came to our homeland, they created such a mess everywhere, and these lines in the sand were drawn by them].” Right? Like, they created the binaries. We may not have had the words for it or there were shades of it, you know, but it. And so that’s been a, that’s been a difficult thing of when someone aligns identity with, of being a white concept when it’s [the] complete opposite of that.

00:08:35 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, and our colonial history doesn’t help to kind of, you know, bring it, you know, make it easier for us to explain things either. There’s like this inherent visceral hatred, you know, validly so, to want to not associate with colonial ideology and sort of like manifestations of today. But yeah, it is a huge challenge, especially when we live in the Western world.

00:09:04 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, yeah. It’s been tough.

00:09:11 SPEAKER_MM

And so what does like, so you talked about sort of your experience of coming out to your mom. What does being out or coming out mean to you?

00:09:22 SPEAKER_SM

I mean, I always say the only person you need to be out to is yourself, period. Like that’s just, we deal with, you know, being out I also think is a shade. It’s like it’s also like if anything’s a white concept it’s that, the act of coming out or the pressure of, you know. But for me and I thought I was like I just, I have to, I have to be able to have this conversation with my mom. Like I knew I would never have this conversation with my dad, you know, that he just, like, it was not. I tried to have the conversation with my brothers, you know, but for me, having like that moment was big for me. I just released so much, you know. Uchi dene kehn lyi, bey Mumi, par ah ki mein a yaan. [In a louder voice I said that Mumi this is who I am.] And, you know, and it’s like just being able to say it out loud, I think, was healing. Regardless of what it was met with. But me uchi dene keha, apne zubaan naal boleya apni maa nu bethake, pyaar naal keha, [But I said, in a louder voice, in my own voice, to my maa, after sitting her down, I said it with love,] “You know what, mom? This is who I am. This is who I love.”

00:10:45 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, you’re sharing a lot of things too that I resonate with where we, especially apney aap de vich [within ourselves], we already hear all the voices telling us all of the things that we know they’re thinking, they’re just not saying. And it’s ingrained in us so much, you know? And so like some of the things that you’re kind of saying makes me think about how much of a challenge that is, especially when you’re holding these sort of identities and you’re trying to sort of figure it out for yourself and also maintain your relationship with who you want to be and all of that. Do you feel like those sorts of, I guess, voices are less now or now you can kind of counteract them better because you’ve built a more healthier therapeutic, I guess, relationship now with Sikhi and queerness.

00:11:44 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, because there was a version of myself that felt like I was a mistake. That felt like— that didn’t wanna be here. I think a lot of us have felt that way, that we’re somehow defective, that it’s just easier for us to not be here. Because for me to live in my full expression means I have to completely obliterate the tasveer, the image that is being thrust upon myself and one that I’ve been projecting out. So then where do I land? And that’s, that’s terrifying. You know, because sometimes you don’t know where you’re gonna land. But for me, I was just so tired of playing a version of myself or a shade of myself and not being able to— and just to be able to say it to my mom, you know. But it is liberating. It’s like, I feel, I feel the freest I’ve ever felt. And it’s been a lot of hard work to get to this place. And I still have my moments. I still get super sad that you know what? That I have surviving family, that my mom’s gone, and I have siblings, blood, like brothers, that don’t really wanna have a relationship with me purely based on how I identify and that hurts. It sucks. But, I’ll give space that sadness. But but that other voice is like, “Okay You can mourn that relationship But what what do you have in front of you?” And that’s when I lean into community. You know what I mean? It’s leaning in. And then I tell myself, I’m like, “You know what? I’m a pretty rad sibling to have. You know? Like, I’m pretty, I’m super loving and I’m weird, but I’m a pretty rad sibling.” So now it’s like, the loss is yours. You know what I mean? I’m like, the loss is on your side. And that’s where I’m like, you know, that’s that part of feeling it.

00:14:10 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, and I think it’s that, right? Like how the grief that then surfaces also then tells you about the joy that comes because of that. It’s like a really interesting emotional [process].

00:14:31 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, and even with, you know, and then I think too I think it’s just guarding the heart, but I think the noise is less. I think I do feel I’m grateful for where I’ve landed you know. And again it’s like just, just that weekend in Rochester like physically meeting people, souls that I’ve been in community with for years, and finally being able to hug, it was so healing. So I remind myself, I’m like, “Tu khali nahi. Tu sitti nahi hoyi. Tere kol haiga aah. Tere aalay dauaalay bahut pyaar aah Sundeep. And that’s because aasi pyaar dey bukhe aah. Par saadey kol aalay duaalay pyaar haiga [You are not alone. You have not been thrown away. You have people. There is love all around you, Sundeep. And that’s because, we are starving for love. But there is love all around us.]

00:15:25 SPEAKER_MM

Pyaar daa dhar vi aah [There is also a fear of love].

00:15:27 SPEAKER_SM

Pyaar daa dhar vee bahut aah [There is also a lot of fear of love.]. You know, it’s— I don’t know. It’s, it’s deep. I just had a dear sister-sibling move relocate here from the UK. And so that’s been really heart-filling, but we’ve been having those conversations about just like the parameters of Sikhi, and the controlling factors of it and all of it. And that’s where I have a radical dream of someday, I’m like, what would that Gurdwaara space look like? Where the Nishaan Saahib is flowing and then we have a pride flag next to it. And that’s just in my mind’s eye of like, what would that space look like? We had a rotation of granthees, that identified however they wanted. And from the tabeya [audience/devotees] to the stage that when someone is doing vichaar [reflection/thought], that they’re including queer folk in that vichaar. You know because my Ardaas, it’s always included you know. But I’ve always included you know, like my siblings or our community, that is living with you know AIDS or is HIV positive. And I include like my queer siblings will always be part of my Panth. They’ll always be in my Ardaas.

00:17:13 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, yeah, you’re kind of segueing into the next section of the, that’s where we kind of want to go into understanding desires. And you know, it sounds like, you know, you’re articulating a desire for other people to resonate with sort of your way of like, calling people in.

00:17:38 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, it’s, you know, and I hate to use, and well, maybe not hate is a strong word. But it’s like the only frame of reference like I have is, you know in LA, we— there’s queer churches, there’s queer churches and we see beautiful, like outside on their boards you know. They have their iconography, they’ve got like a cross, but then they’ve got the intersectional pride flag. So right away as a visual you know that you know what, you can come in this space and pray to your God and you’re gonna be accepted here. I have yet, you know what I mean? Like and that’s just the big daydreamer of me of having a space where we could freely congregate and come as we are. Because again and then this goes into the deeper of you know “What is, what is allowed or not allowed?,” sanctioned by the Akaal Takht or the SGPC. I’m probably messing that up. But you know what I mean? Like the different sanctions and it’s just like— and I know that gets dicey, but it is something, that when I’m driving through Hollywood, I’m Just like, “Oh, wow, what if, you know, in another space, wouldn’t that be amazing to have, you know, a space like that?”

00:18:56 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah.Yeah. Having an umeed [hope] is very, is very crucial to your own growth and your own relationship, right? Do you have other hopes, or umeedan [hopes] or aspirations?

00:19:19 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think that, like I grew up going to Gurmat camp and that has its own trauma too. But I thought “Wow what if there was a queer Gurmat camp?” That it was like you know we have our LGBTQ centered camps but I was like what would that queer Sikh camp look like for adults? And you know maybe different iterations for different age groups down the line. But I do, I hold that time. Like while we were sitting, I was looking around and I was like, “Okay, I’m in Rochester and we all are, like what’s the main thread that connects us all together is our Sikhi, and then culturally our Panjabiness, our Panjabi-bhra.” You know what I mean? And I was just looking, I was like, “Wow, wouldn’t it be amazing to rent some cabins somewhere and to be able to heal that queer Panjabi Sikh kid inside ourselves?,” you know, that’s another dream. And I think like other than them, like you’re the only person I’ve shared that with.

00:20:33 SPEAKER_MM

Like we said in the beginning, we’re creating the future.

00:20:37 SPEAKER_SM

We’re creating futures, you know what I mean? And yeah, I think that it is. And I think it’s in my art, too, of just playing with, just culturally with masc and femme, present, like just presentation. And, and you know, just sharing with them of like, you know, my dad would take his pagh [turban] off and it would still hold its shape. And he put it on the dresser. I would come in and I would put it on just to see what that felt like. And it was so amazing, you know what I mean? It was so amazing I was like, “Oh my gosh.” You know and like moments, moments like that. But yeah those are some wild dreams that I have that may not be— dreams may come to fruition someday. But it is looking at other faith spaces and honestly having some form of inclusion envy. Or it’s like, that would be amazing.

00:21:49 SPEAKER_MM

So these days, where does creating space for intimacy or your fulfillment of your own desires fall on your list of priorities?

00:22:00 SPEAKER_SM

I think it’s high because it was slow for so long, you know? And and then it’s— it’s removing all of the parameters of going, no, you know what? Intimacy, joy, pleasure, all of these things are my birthright. Those are my birthright and I don’t have to feel like I have to put them on the back burner or anything. But I think that’s been a lot of the work that I have done and am doing in therapy, which has been life-saving for me. But yeah it’s very, very important for me to have connection in all aspects.

00:22:44 SPEAKER_MM

Is that how you would define intimacy and/or desire?

00:22:50 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah I think it’s connection. And it can be you know like not only romantic for me with my partner right, like that that core connection for us. But even in the platonic sphere of— of my friendships, of my kinships. Of having that one-on-one time of just having that heart-talk. It is— it’s something that is high on my kind of ladder of needs as a human being. And so it’s like that, that is, that is something that I’ve realized because I didn’t— didn’t have it for so long. Or if I did, it had to be hidden or you know in the shadows or whispers of or something I had to really sanitize or keep some sort of mask in front of it. Now I don’t, it’s like the mask is off.

00:23:53 SPEAKER_MM

So what— in what scenarios and in sort of, what circumstances do you think are required for you to create that sort of opportunity to be in an intimate space or have an intimate connection?

00:24:11 SPEAKER_SM

I think I think it’s safety. I think if I don’t— if I, if I don’t feel safe there’s no way I can arrive at a juncture of intimacy or connection. I think safety is the main thing. Because for me, once I feel safe, and then it’s like, okay, you know what? You can completely be at ease and then build that connection. But it really is I think a sense of safety is the prelude to that.

00:24:46 SPEAKER_MM

You used this idea of having a mask on and taking it off a few times. And I’m curious if there’s something about that where, is that sort of like how you’re kind of also feeling like you are experiencing spaces where you’re like, am I accepted here because of this identity? Am I not accepted here because of this identity? And you kind of feel like you’re in that flux constantly. Do you feel like you’re doing this mask on, mask off thing constantly?

00:25:18 SPEAKER_SM

No, but I did it. I did have that moment where my friend is staying, who’s relocated, staying at a Panjabi Sikh house not too far from it’s like a 20-minute drive. Very sweet family. But, you know so like I walk in and immediately I become hyper-aware of all of a sudden what I’m wearing, right? And then I become hyper-aware of like, “Oh they have Guru Saahib parkaash at their house, mera sir nahi dhakey hoya [My head is not covered] But I’m not in that room, but if I were to go in that room, of course, I would, me sir dhak houngi [my head would be covered], right? And then all of a sudden I’m just hyper-aware. But then the smells are warm, and then I’m thinking of my mom and all of that. And then it’s interesting, because I feel like I code switch in those moments, right? I’m like code switching where I’m like, “Okay, I know that I’m gonna connect with them because mai Panjabi bol sakdee aah ehna dey naal.” Oh vi, more so than not, asi doonghi Panjabi bol sakdey haan bai ke, right? Tay gala batta kar sakdey aah. But then I also know that bhenji’s eyes are still at my head. And she hasn’t really looked me in the eye. She’s still, mere bhenji de aakhe haalan mere baalan vala. And you know what I mean? And uncle ji – oh veerji’s, you know, they’re like old enough, but not, they’re also still young. So I was like, “Veerji, bhenji.” So it’s like navigating those spaces where, and then they’ll be like, “Teri Panjabi eh hi badeeya.” You know, and I’m like, “Thank you, tohadee.” [I can speak Panjabi with them. And even then more so than not, we can sit down and we can speak in deep Panjabi. We can chat. But then I also know that sister’s eyes are still at my head. And she hasn’t really looked me in the eye. She’s still, my sister’s eyes are on my [lack of] hair. And you know what I mean? And uncle ji – oh brother, you know, they’re old enough, but not, they’re also still young. So I was like, “Brother, sister.” So it’s like navigating those spaces where, and they’ll be like, ‘But your Panjabi is really good.” You know, and I’m like, “Thank you to you [respectfully].”

And I’m like. And then the question inevitably will come, be.

00:27:00 SPEAKER_MM

I think you’re muted.

00:27:02 SPEAKER_SM

Oh, am I muted? Oh no, am I still? Am I still with you?

00:27:08 SPEAKER_MM

Oh, can you turn it off? Sorry, I think the Bluetooth, my Bluetooth came off.

00:27:14 SPEAKER_SM

Oh, Can you hear me?

00:27:16 SPEAKER_MM

There you go, yeah.

00:27:17 SPEAKER_SM

Okay, okay, gotcha.

00:27:18 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, sorry. My partner was putting on the headphones.. Technical difficulties today

00:27:24 SPEAKER_SM

It’s okay It’s okay. I totally, that happened to me the other day. It’s all good, it’s all good. That happened to me the other day where I ended up, I was singing to myself along with something else and then he picked me up in the car with his conversation. And I was like, oh my gosh. But yeah, I do feel like it’s code switching. Because mainu pata, jado mai Panjabi bolan lag jandi eh na naal, right, fir torha jeha eh na leh sikha lava haina [Because I know that when I begin speaking Panjabi with them, right, then little by little they understand], right? So then I’m not that othered, right? Then I have language point. Then when we talk about maybe some parts of Sikhi, then. But then the question that is going to come is, “Putt, ja bhenji, tuhaday jerhay baalan, ehna da like, tuhade kol condition haigi, medical condition haigi? Ja tusi jaan ke kitha [My child, or sister, about your hair, is it like that, do you have a condition, a medical condition? Or did you go and do this]?.” And then I’m like, “Ah, shit!,” right? “Asi chaah da cup peekay gal samapat kar sakday sigay, mai bajh jana si itthon. Par hun gal muray aayi hun, karni pehni aah tuhadey naal. [We could have simply had our cups of tea and finished up here, and I could have rushed home. But now the conversation is in front of us, and I have to talk about this with you now.] And I’m having an internal struggle. Like, “Mai kive kehva? Ji, mein na non-binary aah. [How do I say it? Respectfully, I am non-binary].” And then they’re obviously not, or maybe they are, “Jina mai apnay aap nu mard dey roop vich sabat sukhi samaj sakdeeya, oni me nari dey roop ‘ch [Just as I feel comfortable and happy in the form and presentation of a man, I feel the same in the form of a woman]. Or I’m going to try to find the language that’s closest in proximity. And sometimes it goes over their head. Or they’ll be like, “Tu baal rakhe tey tu jaada vi sohni laggu” [If you kept your hair, then you would look very beautiful]. And I’m like, “Okay, thank you. Yeah, noted.” But it is that tug of war of like, you know, because, and then I’ve had the moment where, you know, I’ll put on a chunni [head scarf] and I’ll tuck it behind my ears. And if it’s cotton, you can’t tell, right? But then once the chunni comes off, then they’re like, “Aa ki ho gaya [what has happened here]?” You know what I mean? Mind is blown. Then all of a sudden, that little bit of the warmth is maybe gone. And I’m like, shit. And then I have had moments like, “Je mai munda hundi, tusi gal karni vi nahi sigi.” [If I were a man, you wouldn’t have even said anything].” You know what I mean? So it is, it is exhausting. And then after I left that, I was like, “Man, I need a milkshake.” And you know what I mean? I need to come home and I need to take a hot shower. And I was, I was exhausted. I’m tired. And that’s— and that happens in Gurdwaara spaces too. That’s why I’m like, “What’s my energy levels?” Because the only other option is, I just pretend like I don’t know Panjabi at all. And I have done that. I’ve just not said a word.

00:30:03 SPEAKER_SM

You know what I mean? Or I just don’t make eye contact. I go in, matha tayk [prostrate] come back out, and it’s— it is hard. Yeah. It’s fielding all of it. It’s just the code switching. But again, if I didn’t have, like, my Panjabi helps. Knowing Panjabi helps. That’s a huge buffer. If I didn’t have that, it would be, definitely be harder.

00:30:31 SPEAKER_MM

Or even potentially easier, depending on sort of the circumstances, right? Like how you’re saying, like it helps you kind of get out of a situation much quicker. I don’t want to engage.

00:30:45 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, 100%. I’m just like, “Oh, okay.” You know, because, and that’s another thing too, it’s like the female moni [perceived non-practicing Sikh woman], right? Which is the word they keep saying, is gonna be received very differently than the male mona [perceived non-practicing Sikh man]. You know? Yeah.

00:31:10 SPEAKER_MM

And it’s also interesting, na [no]? Like in Panjabi, there’s like all of these like derogatorily used terminologies that we’re so familiar with, but yet we can’t find the nomenclature around like how to express love, you know?

00:31:24 SPEAKER_SM

Yes, yes, yes. It’s insane. Yeah, I’m just plugging my phone in. Yeah, I think that’s a kicker too, right? That’s been a big, big thing of like just language. I don’t have the language for my identity in so many spaces. I just don’t have the base language. Like saaday lyi [for us], we don’t have it. And, sorry, This is a terrible angle, I apologize, but my phone needs charging [laughs]. But it’s the exhausting kind of dance of just not having a term, just the language, and it’s very, very hard.

00:32:20 SPEAKER_MM

But I liked how you vocalized and articulated sort of your conversations with not just older adults about these sorts of things that you’re sort of encountering, right? But also with your mom, you know, or with your nani ji and stuff. Like I feel like there’s something that I hope, you know, listeners are gonna be like, “Okay, so this is kind of an example, you know? This is kind of like something that’s happened in someone’s life.” Like, I feel like you brought in a future for them to even think about the articulation and sort of potentially having that conversation if they need to, you know?

00:33:03 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think it just takes, for me, she was that one person that made me feel seen. You know that made me feel seen and also was the one person that was very firm in that no one can dictate your Sikhi. That is a part of you and how you choose to be a Sikh is fully part of you and here are the things that are the most important. And here are the things that are part of it, but this is the core. You know, they like, what are your convictions, right? Like, how are you living? How are you treating people? That’s a key. You know, and so I think identity is is all baked in there, but I think more than that is— is how we treat ourselves and each other. I always fall back on that.

00:34:01 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, So how are you manifesting all of that? How are you sort of bringing that? What does your practice look like today for you?

00:34:11 SPEAKER_SM

I think that I’ve come back to strengthening my reading of Gurmukhi. Because for a long time, I turned— I just was like, you know what I need to excavate myself and religion I’ll come back to it. But it was always a deep part of myself. So now it’s sitting with and going back to Gurbaani and really finding it and learning it on my own. And then having those moments of reconnecting with, you know, Ardaas and Naam Simran in a completely different way, but also being able to listen to keertan too. That was another part of it. So I think slowly integrating those things, you know, because my, you know— my kids, they know of the faith and I think that we’ve been more so non-religious in the house just because of the trauma. And so now I feel like at the age of 41, I’m reconnecting to all the things that were presented to me through a very patriarchal lens and now I’m stripping that and going I’m having so many aha-moments, like, “Oh wait a minute the core of this actually— all these rules they put around it actually don’t exist.” And so that’s been one interesting thing. And then just all, again, I go back to finding community that I’m not, mai khali baithi nahi haigi [I am not sitting alone].

00:35:49 SPEAKER_MM

Do you find these moments to be healing and nourishing? Are there other ways in which you’re also finding healing and nourishing?

00:36:02 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think it is deeply healing. You know, because it’s like I don’t have to qualify my Sikhi anymore than I have to qualify my queerness. And I think that that is something I remind myself of. Of all the spaces and practices that made you feel good, that made you feel warm, that made you feel connected, I can connect, I can find that again. And I feel like I’m finally finding that.

00:36:43 SPEAKER_MM

Those are most of my questions. One of my last questions kind of circles back to the first question I asked was, what do you hope comes out of sharing your life history and what you shared, some of it does?

00:36:59 SPEAKER_SM

That young, non-binary or GNC, or trans queer kid that has a love for their Sikhi can also have a love for themselves and that every part of you can exist and that you’re good enough and you don’t have to make yourself smaller or hide parts of yourself or if you’re living under a roof right now where you can’t live in the full expression of yourself, that someday you will. It’ll get easier, you know, but that no one can take your Sikhi away from you. And it doesn’t have to look one certain way. That’s what I would hope. Thank you.

00:38:11 SPEAKER_MM

Thank you. You called in all the ancestors today. You took us to the past, the present and the future. And you are a rad sibling, Sundeep, you really are. I think you’re like, yeah. Like Seyva, like this is Seyva in my mind, like for sure.

00:38:38 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah. Bhenay, I send you so much pyaar.

00:38:42 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, you too.

00:38:44 SPEAKER_SM

Oh, and you’re in LA, I hope to meet you.

00:38:50 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wanted to ask sort of about your profession and like, you know, like sort of how you’re bringing all of that together. But I don’t know, I felt like the wavelength was different. You know, I felt like it was more about like connecting to you as like an individual level and like sort of what’s underneath the surface, you know?

00:39:19 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, I think my, You know, even in my art, you know, it’s like, my queerness is, like, whatever I create, it’s always gonna be part of it, but I think my art is such a healing part for me as well. And it was, you know, like I had this auntie character that I created called Gulabo Masi and she’s a mashup of my msasiji and my mom. And, you know, she’s like a comedic character but she’s like the maasi we all need. I was like, I’m gonna be the maasi that’s gonna give me halla sheri [praise/affirmation], but maasi also has been living with her partner, Preeto, for a long time. She never got married. You know what I mean? So there’s shades of her. And that’s joyful to me, that’s play. You know what I mean?

And, but then I also, one of my, my performance, my first performance art piece that I debuted, because I was like, what do I want to speak to? And it was about 1984 and kind of and Sikhi and so my nana ji was a fauji. He was a major and I remember my conversations with him is you know war did a number on him and he was one of the first people to fight for in Calgary because he was he wasn’t allowed to come into the Legion because he was wearing a pagh. They were like, you have to remove your head covering. He was like, I’m a serviceman. So there was a case and then they moved their rules. But my conversations with him of just being in the Indian army and his experience, I asked him, I was like, “Nanaji, do you ever regret it?” He goes, “No, I just regret the time we lost— jina asi sama guaacheya.” I was like, damn, that’s real. They said, “Saddi khun di keemat ki ya [what is the value of our blood] when we’re fighting for their cause, right? Versus for when there’s injustices in Panjab.”

But anyways, I did it. My character was Sant Sepahi and it was a soldier character inspired by my nana ji where you know I was wearing a false beard and I did tie a pagh. You know what I mean? But I feel like those are all the parts that live in— so through performance I’m able to honor, maybe the Sardarni and the Sardar that live inside of me. And I can do it that way. But yeah, it’s been a journey too. And that’s been interesting too, of like, anytime you speak to religion or politics, people are going to be like, “Eh nahi kar sakdi. Pehla eh da naa dekho. Pher eh da baal nahi rakey ho. Pher eh aaya. Pher eh de kol girlfriend vi sigi naale boyfriend vi ah. Ah queer ki.” [They can’t do that. First look at their name. Then look at how they don’t keep their hair. Then they also had a girlfriend, and they have a boyfriend.]” And you know, all of that. And it’s, and so just filtering out the noise of going, You know what I mean? Just building and being in that. But yeah, sorry, I went on a little bit of a tangent.

00:42:08 SPEAKER_MM

No, absolutely not.

00:42:10 SPEAKER_SM

Yeah, but it’s, and then also, you know, I’ve been dabbling in what it means to also speak to my masculinity. And I came up with a drag king. And my drag king’s name is Tantalize Singh. And I think that’s so joyful. You know, I was like, “Why can’t I play in that masc-ness?” So I’m still discovering, but I would love to meet you and thank you for these questions. I feel like mostly what I did was just cry and unravel, but thank you for holding space.

00:42:48 SPEAKER_MM

Yeah, no, you didn’t just mostly cry. I think you were your whole self and I’m glad that you felt comfortable to be vulnerable, and wanting to share your story and making this public. This is hard. This is really, really hard, you know? And so I’m just grateful that we were able to be there together.

00:43:15 SPEAKER_SM

Thank you, Manu. I appreciate you. I send you love and gratitude.

00:43:20 SPEAKER_MM

Yep, yep. Okay, I’m gonna stop the recording and then, yeah, stay in touch.