Jaspreet Sangha

Interview with Jaspreet Sangha Part 1 of 2

00:00:03 SPEAKER_MS

This is manmit singh. Today is June 16, 2023. I am interviewing for the first time Jaspreet Sangha. Today, this interview is taking place in Ithaca, New York from my home office. This interview is sponsored by Jakara and is a part of the Storytelling and Settlement through Sikh LGBTQIA+ Oral History project. Thank you so much again, Jaspreet for being willing to sit down with me and for being willing to share your story. So the first question that I have and also trying to keep it broad with our conversation: When you think back to your experiences of growing up, tell me a little bit about what comes to mind for you? To you, are there any stories, any smells, any relationships that come to mind that help you describe growing up?

00:01:29 SPEAKER_JS

[Pauses to think] Yeah, I think something that comes to mind, and I think it’s only on my mind because I’ve been heavily pondering your words on spillage and overflowing and this urge to seep out of your body, is like, as a kid when I think about my experiences with peers — coming from someone who had a very unpredictable home life and just was desiring connection — I think many times I didn’t understand social cues very well and like I was kind of an awkward kid. And that paired with being gay led to a lot of weird friendships with girls where I didn’t really know what it was. It was like very high-emotion and confusing. So I think that’s something that comes to mind in terms of my childhood. Yeah, like when I think back, I can just feel that feeling of like, I just so badly wanted to merge with other people on anything. And I felt misunderstood a lot. And sometimes I blame being raised in Sikhi, maybe not in such a negative way anymore, but a lot of the fundamentals you’re taught misalign with the United States, with capitalism, with the education system. And so I always felt at odds with the systems in place because in one ear I was hearing one thing, and in another I was hearing another and I didn’t really know how to make both of them work [at] the same time.

00:04:03 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for sharing that. And I would love to hear also as you’re reflecting on, like, spilling out, if there are any stories that you’ve been raised with that do like touch on or make you think in that particular type of way, or any relationships that have modeled that for you possibly, especially because I’m just kind of thinking that one way that people do understand themselves is by thinking about stories that they’ve heard growing up or relationships that they’ve witnessed that at large help them understand themselves. So these stories can be specific to you, like coming out stories or memories from formative moments of your life or stories that you’ve heard throughout your life even that have been passed down from your families. So if you feel comfortable sharing any of either those stories or some relationships. [Pause] If not, we can also come back to the question or maybe the other questions may end up triggering a thought as well.

00:05:34 SPEAKER_JS

Can we move forward a little bit? Thanks.

00:05:36 SPEAKER_MS

Absolutely, yeah, no problem at all. So when thinking about your gender and sexuality, how did you learn about these topics?

00:05:44 SPEAKER_JS

So, didn’t really know too much growing up except my dad did say, “You know, gay people are bad,” at some point in my life. But like, I think my queerness wasn’t really identified as queerness until middle school. Before that it was just, as I said, very deep, high emotion connections with other girls that I thought were like my best friends, but there was this weird romantic dynamic that I just wasn’t cognizant of. So it was middle school where like— I finally saw like openly queer kids. So like I started hanging out with these people. They were the emo kids at school. And first, we kind of connected over music, but then as I got to know them more, I realized like, wait, this is totally who I am too. And I didn’t realize that it was something you could do. I think this was also happening concurrently with my internet evolution, you know, like as a child who was on the internet way too much, I would say— and kind of living in their phone and computer— I was learning about those things from Tumblr. And, you know, I was meeting people and it felt like I was finding myself in a way. So I was about 12 and I think it was my birthday where I went up to my mom and I was like, “Mom I think I’m bisexual.” She was like, “Go to bed. Like what are you talking about? Like don’t even, don’t even bring this up.” And it was so dismissed and I was like, “Okay, cool.” But since then, I haven’t really feared talking about my identity. And in ways I thank my parents for being so dismissive and others I wish I was cherished. But it’s through that dismissiveness that instead of a heated anger or complete rejection that I’ve been able to explore my identity. So I think I took what I could get at the time, which was a passiveness in a way. Yeah, I didn’t really have any actual explicitly romantic interactions until after high school. So it’s been, it’s been a lot of years of me just crushing and thinking and playing with my gender. I think in the fifth, sorry —- the fourth grade — I have a story! I have a story. So the fourth grade, we did a Gold Rush musical and it was paired with a square dancing routine. So for the square dancing routine, I had a boy partner, and I really didn’t want a boy partner. And I was just so disgusted having to dance with him every day, like to practice. But for the musical, I really pushed for me to be able to wear the boy outfit, which is a cowboy hat and a flannel shirt instead of the skirt and the braids and a bonnet or something, because I thought it looked so ugly. So I got to, and I just remember somebody’s parent on the recital day looked at me and said, “You look really handsome.” And I was like, “Thank you.” And I think that might be— sorry, I might cry— but that might be the first time I felt gender euphoria, I think. Or the first time I was cognizant of me feeling that way. And I had a lot of issues with that teacher. I think, like as I said before, unpredictable household with a lot of unhealthy behaviors definitely bled into my school life and in ways I feel very empathetic to those teachers who had to deal with me, who just didn’t have a healthy outlet and acted up at school, but still allowed me to express parts of myself that I just wanted to explore. So I really do think that teacher— Ms. Madal— she let me do that and yeah, I’ll never forget it.

00:10:56 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no, thank you so much for sharing that story and for sharing about your first experience of gender euphoria too. It’s so sacred to receive. And in kind of furthering those reflections on gender and sexuality, how have your ideas of gender and sexuality changed in your life? So if you were to think about understanding your gender and sexuality today, and if you had to define some of your life so far in terms of phases or chapters, maybe, what would those chapters or phases be? And I can drop this in the chat as well.

00:11:27 SPEAKER_JS

Cool. So I would say like after that recital, I went through phases of— like my parents bought me a lot of clothes, but I also got to pick some clothes. And when I did, they’d be very masculine leaning. And I had a phase where like I wore bow ties everywhere which I think is a chronic gay experience. It’s a canon event, you can’t interfere but it’s awful. So yeah I would say like there was always something very masculine about me. I think that also collides with and this is taking me to a question, so let me try to stay on track here, but something to note is, you know, part of Sikhi, like keeping your kesh, growing up as someone identified as a female, that was humiliating at times because I was constantly bullied in elementary school for looking the way that I do and having so much body hair and just like kind of being socially awkward. So I think part of my socialization was people receiving me as very masculine, but from a place of disgust, you know, that it wasn’t really fitting this identity that I was given and it was abhorrent and disgusting that it wasn’t working. And so when I was 12, my parents were like, “Okay, it’s time, you can shave.” And so I shaved and I shaved for years, every day. It was a huge part of my life was hours and hours of shaving. But I don’t anymore. So I would say a chapter of my gender identity was very much so trying very hard to conform to feminine beauty standards out of fear of rejection and out of a desire to be wanted sexually. Going back to— sorry, I’m not being very linear here, but going back to what we were talking about.

00:14:01 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, so I would say I identified as a woman up until I was 18 or 19. And then my good friend Noor and I around the same time, were like, I think we’re they-thems. And so we both supported each other, you know, we both come from— they come from Islam and I’m Sikh and so like these are kind of foreign concepts in modern times at least, coming from these faiths. So it was a chapter of exploring what it meant to be non-binary and all of that. And it’s also during that time that I entered my first ever relationship, which was with a transmasculine person and it’s over, but I can’t ever repay him for how much space and love he gave me to, you know, develop my identity and recognize things in myself that I didn’t really recognize before. I didn’t really know how bad I wanted top surgery until I met him and how much of a reality it was for me. I think I kind of put that away because I thought it could never happen. And when I gained the confidence to actually, you know, apply for it and yeah, that wouldn’t have happened without him. It was also then where I got in a lot of arguments with my father while I was dating this guy. And I was playing with my gender fluid and my dad every day would just be looking at me like I’m gross for having a mustache and it was the first year of my life in so many years that I hadn’t razed my face every day and it felt so good that I could just wake up and be like, “Okay, this is how I look. This is who I am and I can walk the world like this.” It was also COVID, which means I was masked. So there was so much safety in it of, “I can do this and I’m not perceived in any which way.” So it was a beautiful time of just the right circumstances. So I’d say at that point in time I was heavily identifying as transmasculine. I would say Sikhi kind of went on the back burner for me in terms of what I was focused on. I was very immersed in this new gender movement of, you know, all of these things and but towards the end of the relationship with that guy, I was scheduled for top surgery. Things weren’t going as well as they were. His treatment-resistant depression was getting really bad, and he was constantly fatigued. I felt like those Sikh fundamentals I was taught weren’t serving me well because in ways I was overextending and getting trampled on because I so badly wanted to merge with this person. And it was then where we started to do Rehraas every night. So yeah, I would read Rehraas Saahib and we would just do our Rehraas together and then we broke up and I would say towards that time when I started getting back into Sikhi is when my identity began to evolve I think, from more transmasculine to agendered— more nonconformist and more not-super-invested-in-perception or my vessel or anything like that, more— you know.

00:18:43 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, absolutely. No, thank you so much. And actually that’s a great segue into the next question as well, which is, when thinking about your relationship to Sikhi, how did you learn more about Sikhs and Sikhi, and how has that relationship changed and evolved over phases in your life? So kind of similarly to how you were doing it for the previous question, when thinking about Sikhi and if you have to define some of your life so far in terms of phases, what would they be? And I can also drop this in the chat as well.

00:19:14 SPEAKER_JS

Right. So, like when I was really young, I went to Gurdwaara a lot, but it felt like more of a playground, which honestly, I feel I stand by to this day. It should feel that way for kids. It should feel like a place to play and all of the other stuff comes with it. But I think first and foremost, it should always feel like a place of community and a place to play. I had a really religious grandfather who passed away when I was really young, so I think after he passed everyone in the family kind of disengaged because he was so tightly affiliated with the Gurdwaara. And so once he was gone, it was this disconnect of like, “What’s our bridge, what’s our tether to this place?” I witnessed a lot of— I don’t know— loss of faith growing up. My dad was kind of atheist. He still won’t admit it, but he walks a weird path. My mom, very early on in my life— also, she has bipolar and PTSD— so I felt like I was absorbing a lot of practical insight from my father on how the world works, and then my mom didn’t have her feet on the ground. Like, she was constantly exploring all of these spiritualities, ideologies, practices, rituals, And so I think I didn’t really study Sikhi that much as a child because the people around me weren’t so invested. My mom has identified as many things over time and sometimes I aligned with it, sometimes I didn’t, but I don’t really know if it was me or if I just wanted my mother to have something in common with me. And then around like the time I hung out with those emo kids in middle school, I got very atheist, very “There is no God, there is no hope, there is nothing,” and “there’s nothing but the void.” Which, funny enough, sometimes I feel like atheist me is closer to Sikh me than confused spiritual me is. But anyways, I’d say then my politics really changed in high school and they deeply misaligned with the Sikh politic that we talk about. I fell for some grift and just wasn’t— I don’t like that person, but I was still very much so identifying as atheist, agnostic. I was very weak-willed. Someone could have converted me to Christianity so easily if they just talked to me at the right time.

00:22:37 SPEAKER_JS

Anyways, I would say then around like 19, 20, it’s as soon as I felt free to explore my gender to its fullest that I was immediately gravitating towards Sikhi again. So I’d say those paths do merge. How I got there? YouTube videos, reading, Suraj Podcast by Jvala Singh changed my world. Yeah, just, I think the other thing that really kept me away was community, like being a queer person, I felt like the only one. And the queer people that I did know had already been so far removed from Sikhi that that wasn’t something we could connect over. Like it just wasn’t a reality. It’d be rude, you know, to be like, “Hey…” So it’s really only when I kind of found the Twitter community of Sikhs— queer Sikhs that it felt feasible to— because I think, and I think you know this well too, is while a lot of the disciplines of Sikhi are in solitude, without a Sangat it just— it’s not complete. It will never feel complete.

00:24:15 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And that actually, especially like as you were outlining some of the resources, and where you’ve kind of turned to the different friends, the different communities, I would love to hear more about who are the friends that you found solace with or communities you found support in throughout your journey.

00:24:39 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, so I’d say first of all, there’s my aunt, she’s queer. I believe she will also possibly be interviewed for this. Growing up, I didn’t know she was queer, but she’s the only person in my family that I’ve ever seen embody their beliefs so deeply, and I always knew I wanted to be like that and so I’d say her support of my queerness and my connection with Sikhi and also recognizing all the shitty things that the Sikh community can do. Someone vocalizing that was very needed for me to be able to engage with Sikh literature and Sikh people again. So there’s that and on Twitter and stuff, just strangers, people from the UK. Sikh lesbians who I will never meet in my life. But they just had a musing or a thought that they tweeted about. Sikhi and queerness or just Sikhi in general and being able to resonate and listen and not so much debate but converse was awesome. Then the non-strangers, I’d say you— like meeting you, it was one of the great blessings of my life. I hadn’t gone to Gurdwaara so regularly ever in my whole life, but it’s only after meeting you, and it took us a long while, I think, to really see each other, but after we did, it was just so easy to meet and pray and yeah.

00:26:53 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, thank you so much for everything. Thank you so much for everything. There’s no words to, I guess, what, with what words do you pay back those with whom you discover Sangat for the first time. With what words do you even say thank you? And with what words do you encapsulate the credit that is owed? So thank you so much for that. And I actually, I was also kind of sitting with, earlier you mentioned, the Suraj Podcast, for example. You mentioned even thinking about how your own identification changed from, in terms of, in thinking about identifying as agender or in thinking about gender fluidity and thinking about gender abolition through hearing about and learning more about Sikhi. So I would love to hear more about what are some stories that you’ve heard that have helped you like understand yourself better. For example, those could be stories of specific family members. For example, you have mentioned your aunt or stories from Sikhi even of the Guru Saahibs, stories across history given that you also mentioned Jvala Singh’s podcast, or of stories of other people in your local community or those of activism, but any stories that you really hold onto that have greatly shaped how you walk the world?

00:28:22 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I fear like talking about Sikh history or Sikh stories, because I don’t want to get it wrong. So I probably won’t. But even though I won’t recall one here, I think the amalgamation of absorbing all of those different stories has definitely led me to that conclusion in my gender identity at this time. Something that does come to mind, and I guess I am taking this out of context but so be, it is the soul-bride. The genderless soul-bride, you know? Like I think there are so many people who practice Sikhi who are personally invested in keeping these sexual dimorphisms alive, even though many of the applied disciplines of Sikhi are in effort to remove those sexual dimorphisms— both in efforts to mitigate or abolish misogyny, but also in effort to lead one back to ek, to the oneness, that there is no intricacy beyond that. Stories of— I don’t know. I don’t know if I have stories. I’m sorry.

00:30:02 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no, no problem at all. No, thank you. What you’ve shared also is like absolutely more than enough too. So thank you for that. I would love to hear more also about being out and coming out. So what would you say being out means to you and what does coming out mean to you? And in your experience, has that been a straightforward or linear process? And is this something that you think everybody has to do within their life? So I could drop some of these questions in the chat, but at large speaking to coming out.

00:30:38 SPEAKER_JS

Sure. So I did tell you that I tried to come out when I was 12 and it didn’t really go as planned. I feel like I’ve been out since. I feel like I was out before that, even if I didn’t want to be. But, I would say people in my family hear what they wanna hear. And it doesn’t matter how many times I say, I’m not a woman, [to them] I’m a woman. And my father knows what I am. He fears what I am. And we just accept that that’s not something we’re ever gonna align on and we just meet each other exactly where we at. Like, I think we both have a lot of love for each other, but that being out with him means that I’m not really ever out. I’m like in this weird gray space of like, he cares about me too much to remove me from his life and feels obligations toward me that he can’t absolve himself of, but— he won’t embrace me like exactly how I am. My mom on the other hand, the moment I was out like as a 20 year old, 19 year old, she accepted it. Like she accepted that as a part of me and it was never a question. She took care of me as I healed through top surgery. That’s like something I can never repay her for. I think about how blessed I am to have had that with her. We had so many terrible things happen in our relationship growing up, you know, us having a mentally ill mother. She failed me in ways that I can’t really blame her for. And so there’s all of this pent up anger that I had nothing to do with. So having that two weeks of time where like she saw me exactly how I was, and tended to me, like a mother does and yeah, it was definitely very healing for us I think. Coming out beyond that, I’m out at my job. I do get misgendered frequently but I’m out at my job. I’m out to my brother. My brother calls me his sibling, his brother sometimes, you know, whatever comes to him. I don’t really care. We talked about this before, about roles and how sometimes it feels like, not that your identities come second, but that they’re almost unimportant in some context, or they can be considered different in some context because there’s some underlying understanding or there’s a dynamic there that’s been pre-established and you want to maintain that for the reasons that it provides, like what it provides for the two of you, you know? So I don’t mind being his sister. I love being his sister.

00:34:12 SPEAKER_JS

What else about coming out? So I told both of my grandmothers and they were both really scared of my chest now. Like it’s— we don’t talk about it. Yesterday I was on the phone with my Naanee Jee and I was feeling very masc and I play around, like I’ll say things to her and she’ll be like, “No.” So I was like, “I kind of look like a munda [boy] today.” And she was like, “No, you don’t. You’re getting married to a man after you’re done with college.” I was like, “I know we’re joking here because you better be.” But you know, like she can say whatever she wants and I know she still cares. It sucks in ways that like I’m not really out. It doesn’t matter how much, how out I feel like I’m communicating, it’s not absorbed or received that way. So it’s just what it is, you know? And I just live, I live in that weird limbo with a lot of people in my life, I would say.

00:35:17 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for that and for sharing that as well. And I guess like this kind of moves us into the next question as well, which especially as we’ve been reflecting a lot about identity and identity formation and how those identities have also changed and also continue to be changing situation to situation even. So I guess if you had to think about and thinking about how you think of yourself too, how has your understanding of yourself looked like at different points of your life. So if one way that people do understand themselves is by thinking about their identity through common categories or the communities that are part of such as like, Sikh, queer, trans, working class, sibling, caste location, migrant, parent, disabled, Californian or Panjabi. But I just kind of wanted to, I guess, also create some space for you to be able to share how you do think about yourself.

00:36:15 SPEAKER_JS

That’s really hard. I don’t think about myself as a self very much these days. Sometimes I feel very disconnected from all of that. But identifiers, I’d say, yeah, uh. Queer, Sikh, agender, they/he pronouns, preferred. I identify as a Marxist. Usually I say I’m a Sikh Marxist. My Sikhi comes first. Because I feel like there’s so many— like it just provides such an in-depth political framework that sometimes I feel like I don’t need anything else to kind of visualize my politic. But I would say like in the Western political context I align with Marxism. Caste positionality, I come from a caste privileged background with a lot of caste violence. And I think like growing up queer, I always saw that in my family. And like, was always disgusted by it because I knew that in some way I’m next. You know there was a lot of anti-Blackness and I don’t know, I think I wish my family saw what I saw in those things, but they don’t. And so I’m almost grateful in a way because growing up with all of that, I knew exactly what I didn’t wanna be. Like through negation, I’ve developed my identity in many ways through being a contrarian. So— uhm sorry, let me look at the message. Oh, sorry, I don’t see it. It’s okay, let me think.

00:38:35 SPEAKER_MS

I also just dropped it in the chat as well if you would want to see it. Also happy to move on to other questions that further do provide opportunity to continue this conversation about identity formation.

00:38:48 SPEAKER_JS

Cool. Yeah, I’d say I identify as a sibling very heavily. It’s only in these later parts of my life I’ve really identified with that. Younger me was parent-alized very heavily. And so like now is only the time that I can see my brother as more of a peer, as more of someone that I can advise, but not have to micromanage. So like, that’s been really cool, is this new evolution, new iteration of siblinghood in my life. Californian, I don’t really say I’m Californian, like never does that come up in conversation, but I guess yeah, I’m Californian. I was born and raised here in San Jose. I live in San Francisco. I will probably live in Sacramento. And so I think I’m from here. Yeah. Panjabi, yeah. Yeah, I would say, yeah, these things come easy.

00:39:54 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for that. And I guess and kind of reflecting further about like your identification with Sikhi as well. What would you say is your relationship with Sikh communities, with Sikh Sangat and the larger Sikh Qaum— the larger Sikh community more broadly?

00:40:22 SPEAKER_JS

I comfortably go to most Gurdwaaras nowadays and I feel connected to the greater Sangat. I think a lot of that comes from me and not the other way around, but it’s kind of the way I have to operate to feel that way. You know, I can’t really get that feeling if I don’t convince myself of certain things, I guess, but yeah— I feel engaged in Sangat. I feel hopeful for Sangat. We’ve had some shared experiences with Sangat that I feel are very disheartening, but also led us to find new ways to hope and dream and envision. And so it’s even through those pains that I experienced being part of Sangat that bring me even closer to it. I don’t feel like I’m the best Sikh. There is no best Sikh, but I don’t feel always like I am embodying Sikhi in the way that I would like to. Some of that is due to my environment. Others are my own doing. All I can do is every day wake up and hope I do Japjee Saahib. And if I don’t, then I don’t.

00:42:09 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for that. And actually, I would love to ask you, since you do bring this up, how would you even define a Sikh?

00:42:19 SPEAKER_JS

I feel like I’ve met Sikhs in my life who don’t know that they’re Sikhs, who don’t have the vocabulary to explain that they’re Sikh. They just, they use other words, but I think that’s exactly the point is that Sikh is anyone. Sikh is anyone who’s desiring that understanding that we hold as Sikhs to our relationship with the cosmos, I would say, is it in its most concentrated form is, you know, as human beings, where do we stand in relationship to everything around us? How do we recognize the illusory nature of existence? How do we connect with the divine? So many people have these questions, but they don’t call themselves Sikhs. So I would say I call a Sikh anyone who’s— well, this is where it gets complicated. I guess you really do have to self-identify as a Sikh to be a Sikh. But the word Sikh, you know, as we all know, is, student, learner, we’re all that if we choose to be. So my idea of Sikhi is very inclusive. And, you know— yeah, it’s just, yeah. Sorry.

00:43:53 SPEAKER_MS

Oh no, you have nothing to apologize for. That makes total sense. So thank you for sharing that too. And as you’ve reflected about your relationship to the Sikh community, I would also love to like hear about your reflections on what it means to be a part of the LGBTQIA+ community. So what would you say, does it mean for you to be part of the LGBTQIA+ community? Do you think it’s a single community or a set of communities?

00:44:21 SPEAKER_JS

I’d say it’s a set of communities. I wish it was a single community, but there’s just— not every gay person is my friend. Not every trans person is my friend. I think by spending time in certain spaces, you learn very quickly, you’re not always welcome as a brown person, as a religious person, as someone who doesn’t like to drink very much. Like, you know, I don’t really participate in a lot of the things that unfortunately our modern queer community has recognized as crucial social ventures. I don’t know— you know, like it’s just— it’s hard, especially like from the Sikh lens to be in those spaces. I’ve definitely found people, you know, found other queers that I feel align with me and, can connect with in a safe manner. It’s not everyone though. And so that’s for that reason, I would say it’s a set of communities. I would say like most white gays, most white queers I don’t really find a lot of connection with. It’s challenging. Unfortunately, positionality and identity does ultimately determine a lot of your beliefs and the way that you unconsciously walk the world. So yeah, but it’s only this last couple years that I found a lot of queer joy. I’m going to a Desi Dyke brunch on June 25th. Yes. So I’m excited for that. I am, you know, it’ll probably also feel similar, like I’ll feel the same feelings that I do, but I’m hoping I’ll feel it a little bit less. Yeah, sorry, did that answer the question?

00:46:26 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m very happy for you to go to the brunch and also very sad that in terms of not, especially after having left also, I wish I was there with you to be able to share in some of those moments. But what, I guess like, as you’ve also reflected on a lot of heartbreak with both the Sikh community, as well as the LGBTQIA+ community, I would love to hear like what influences your relationship to Sikhi and being a Sikh. Do you think there are factors that maintain your relationship, what keeps you there? How would you describe your experiences with maintaining a relationship with Sikhi and or the LGBTQIA+ community?

00:47:12 SPEAKER_JS

Right. Being queer, I think, as we said before, at such an early age I felt that yearning to merge. I feel like I was self-actualized and suddenly thrust into this philosophical nightmare where every day I wake up and I’m pondering what it means to be me, what it means to exist, and all of these questions. And I’ve learned many different ways to band-aid that through different political identifications, gender identifications, different sets of friends, and trying to use my environment to outline what it meant to be here. And it’s really only through Sikhi that I’ve found a comfort. Oh my gosh, my phone’s at 1% friend.

00:48:28 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no problem at all. No worries at all. We can also pick back up on another day. Would that be good?

00:48:37 SPEAKER_JS

I’d love to do that. I’d love to do that.

00:48:42 SPEAKER_MS

No worries. That sounds good. Thank you so much.

00:48:45 SPEAKER_JS

Thank you friend.

Interview with Jaspreet Sangha Part 2 of 2

00:00:04 SPEAKER_MS

This is manmit singh Today is July 18, 2023. I am interviewing for the second time, Jaspreet Sangha. This interview is taking place at my temporary residence in Toronto. This interview is sponsored by Jakara and it’s a part of the Storytelling and Settlement through Sikh LGBTQIA+ Oral Histories Project. Thank you so much, Jaspreet, for taking your time to continue our conversation from last interview. So thank you for creating space for a second round. So picking up from where we actually left off, where you were reflecting on what does it mean to be part of the LGBTQIA+ community, and if you think it is a single community or a set of communities. I know that you were in the midst of answering and that’s when it cut out. So I just wanted to create some space to pick back up on that same question, if there’s anything you did want to add or share any reflection with you. And I can also drop this question into the chat as well.

00:01:08 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I guess it also really does depend on the day that you asked me that question. So I do fear now picking up that question today, you know, I’m coming to it with new eyes. It’s post-Pride. I’ve had different experiences and you know, maybe I would see it differently. But yeah, I don’t know if I had anything else to say or if I was in the middle of saying something.

00:01:45 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah. Oh, no worries at all. We can definitely move to the next question as well.

00:01:49 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I would love to.

00:01:51 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, 100%. And maybe I’m sure that in answering this question, maybe it’ll actually tie into and add on to the other questions, since they’re so interconnected. But what influences your relationship to Sikhi/being a Sikh? Do you think there are factors that influence your relationship to a Sikhi/being a Sikh? How would you describe your experiences with maintaining a relationship with Sikhi and the LGBTQIA+ community?

00:02:18 SPEAKER_JS

Sure. So like, I always feel like my personality [inaudible] —beloved and having more Sikh folks in my life as frequent companionship has really changed, I’d say my day-to-day relationship with Sikhi. As before, it was something I thought about a lot, but didn’t really— one, didn’t really have people to talk to about it. And two, it’s so easy to get swept up with life stuff and forget to integrate Sikh practice into it. And so having folks that remind me of what I want to embody has really helped. Discipline-wise, I know you and I went to the Gurdwaara a lot, a few months ago. And so I do find that in the morning when I wake up, I do feel motivated to pray, which I didn’t really feel for a long time. So I think of that as something that has changed. That was due to who I had in my life at that given time. I guess— sorry, could I see the question?

00:04:12 SPEAKER_MS

Yes, I dropped it in the chat.

00:04:13 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, let’s see, thank you. Right. So, yeah, maintaining a relationship with Sangat has been crucial for me. I guess maintaining relationships with the LGBTQIA+ community— in many ways I feel disengaged and can’t really speak to what it feels like to be like in habitual community with LGBT folks. A lot of my day— day-to-day is not— I’d say my day-to-day is inherently queer because I’m queer but it’s not like I’m surrounded by queerness from all sides and I’d say part of that is I’m still recognize we’re in a pandemic. And for that reason, I’m not seeking out, you know, like constantly being in social spaces or, and then also, just my own loneliness. But, I’d say another thing is a lot of the things that you do to embody Sikhi can be in community, but the meditative aspect to me at least is really centering the importance of solitude and what you can gain from solitude. So yeah, it’s both of those things.

00:06:01 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you for sharing that. If you feel comfortable sharing, like since you named disengagement from the queer and trans community, I would love to hear a little bit more about like why and how that disengagement like comes to be and how you navigate that.

00:06:18 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. Living in San Francisco, a lot of the spaces are white gay spaces, you know? And as someone who’s visibly trans and just brown and hairy, like it feels weird. I feel alienated. I feel like I like went to the wrong place, showed up at the wrong time. Like, I don’t know, it’s hard to feel like I belong. And I’m finding that belonging needs to come internally and not from where I am and so that also means not putting myself in spaces where I know I’m gonna feel that way and just hope that I don’t or hope that someone sees me and is, you know, validates me in a way that then I feel like I belong there. Like if I can’t feel like I belong there, in myself, then I just feel like I shouldn’t do it. So I think that’s why oftentimes I don’t find myself in a lot of queer spaces here. That being said, I’d say all of my closest friends are queer and trans. Like most of the people like who I talk to on a daily basis are queer and trans, but most of my friendships and relationships are digital, online. My friends are geographically all over the place. So yeah, sorry. So I in some ways feel disengaged from this idea of like Western queer community that we have, but I also find that I am immersed in queer community, just maybe not in my real world, more like my digital world.

00:08:11 SPEAKER_MS

No, no, 100%. No, thank you for sharing that and for sharing how you’ve been able to like find means of engagement, in community, which are just as valid when they’re in digital context too. And I kind of want— expanding on that question as well, what type of resources or support did you seek to help you navigate your experiences? Do you think being Sikh influenced your decisions? For instance, this could include professional resources like seeking therapy or spiritual resources like engaging in Gurbaani.

00:09:09 SPEAKER_JS

When I started at SF State, I kew I wanted to engage with Sikh circles more and have more Sikh folks in my life and be there as a visibly queer Sikh person. And in some ways, it was defensive in a way that I knew a lot of these spaces are not inclusive to queer and trans Sikhs. And like, I wanted to like butt in there and be like, “listen, we’re here and I’m gonna make you inclusive and politically correct.” So I did start with Jakara like early, early into my time at SF State. I will say like— so SF State is super inclusive. So I think like Jakara at SF State is also super inclusive and they were really awesome and I was on the board. However, it’s a commuter school and post-COVID it was just a huge challenge to get folks to come together and so even though that was my starting point of my yearning of wanting Sikh community. It just kind of sparked something, but it didn’t really like take me to the Sangat that I consider myself to be in today. Sorry, what was the question?

00:10:40 SPEAKER_MS

Oh yeah, no, no, no. The question was what type of resources or support did you seek? So where have you found it?

00:10:46 SPEAKER_JS

Okay great, okay yeah so that was one of the resources, I would say Jakara SF State. Another being therapy. Therapy is new for me right now. I’ve been in a lot of therapy but this new therapy honestly feels like the most aligned with my spiritual beliefs, this somatic therapy of, you know, like really feeling, where am I feeling things in my vessel? And it feels more integrative than talk therapy. Talk therapy feels like I’m just throwing up words to fill this space in between me and this therapist. And so I’m really enjoying being able to— And my Maasi, who also may be interviewed for this, she was telling me that her therapist— sometimes she’s so tired in therapy that she just naps for 20 minutes. And at first she was kind of pissed off, like, why am I paying you for me to nap here for 20 minutes? But then I feel like a huge part of therapy for me right now is carving out that time, And intentionally being like, okay, this is the time where I’m doing blank, which like, I haven’t done in a really long time. And so I think since, picking up more, Sikh disciplines in my day to day life, having that routineness and all of those things just I feel like are kind of coming together as I put more things in my life right now. —resources. Yeah, I don’t know.

00:12:44 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. I know you also touched on Gurdwaaras a little earlier. In going to the Gurdwaaras I would love to also hear about your relationship to Gurdwaaras and how that has changed and evolved over time, especially particularly as someone who is queer and trans as well. And oftentimes like for us, for Sikhs, Gurdwaaras are a resource as well, or are meant to be a resource. So wanted to create space if you did want to share about your relationship to seeking the Gurdwaara as a resource

00:13:27 SPEAKER_JS

I feel like, yeah, Gurdwaaras should be resources for everyone, but generally most North American Gurdwaaras in their politic or what they’re perpetuating, is a business model, you know? And for that reason, it’s hard as an anti-capitalist to— yeah, there’s still free kitchen, free food at langar. And it just still feels like so much of it is commodified that it doesn’t feel— but then like, that’s just one layer to it. Like, yeah, as a queer and trans person, I can say I haven’t gone to the Gurdwaara since you left because, yeah I just don’t feel safe or—. Like, I know nothing physically violent would happen to me, but it is this— again, similar to that feeling of being in white gay spaces is like I’m putting myself in a position where I’m gonna feel a certain way and I think until I reach a point that I can expose myself to that verbal invalidation without internalizing it, then I just shouldn’t engage with it quite yet. But I do plan on going to my Naanee’s house because she has Shri Guru Granth Saahib Jee in her house. And so I was gonna go there. But yeah, Gurdwaaras as a resource— I don’t know. I’m just like, yeah, I don’t know. I’m having too many thoughts. I’m getting a little sidetracked.

00:15:39 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, absolutely. No worries at all. And if you would want, I also do not mind taking a second if you did want to be able to share those thoughts, which do not need to be— they don’t need to be coherent or structured in any particular way, but this is your space, and this is your time to be able to archive in the, in this project, whatever you would want to share and whatever you would want to archive in any format, in any like capacity, in any structure. So if you would want to take a second, I’m happy to, if you would want me to move to the next question, I also can do that.

00:16:18 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I mean, like, I think when I think of Gurdwaaras as a concept, they’re actually quite beautiful and genderless and anti-capitalist and all of these things. And then, like, when I see it applied, like I just feel so repulsed and it’s just sad because I know they can be so much like more than they are which I know, the fundamental is that it’s a Darbar. You know, it’s where we have Guru jee. But all the things around don’t seem to always reflect that. So that’s where I find this conflict, this friction. And that makes it challenging for me to feel at peace when I’m there. Yeah, I mean, I think when I first talked about Gurdwaaras earlier in this interview, I said that the first thing that Gurdwaaras was ever for me was a place to play. You know, like this place of childlike wonder, running on the marble and like feeling like, “Whoa, this big palace,” almost it feels like. Yeah, I just don’t feel that wonder anymore. But I do hope to again someday.

00:17:58 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And just if you feel comfortable sharing, I would love to hear if there is any moment in time where, or any like stories that you may have, any experiences where you did feel like the Gurdwaara was a safe or an affirming space. I guess ask that as from the perspective that we have shared that experience together of going to the Gurdwaara together. So as well as you naming that you continuously have and do work in these spaces that are violent, but yet there’s something that drives you to end up going back and continuing to be there, with like “We’re gonna make this better, even if it’s like violent.” So I just wanted to also create space, if you did wanna share any particular experience that you felt as if the Gurdwaara, in that moment, it felt like a safe and an affirming space.

00:19:05 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. I’d say like when you and I were going together, like I wish, I felt like that alone at the Gurdwaara. Participating in Langar Sevaa every day and feeling that consistent connection to feeding the Sangat and also being in Sangat. Like it felt like very affirming spiritually, physically. I think that’s it for me.

00:19:56 SPEAKER_MS

No, thank you so much for sharing that. So kind of transitioning a little bit to thinking about geography and how and where you’ve grown up. Especially because places in geography are important parts of how people find stability, community, and make sense of themselves, in the context of U.S. History. So if you were to think of and tell me about the area that you live in now or have grown up in, to you, how did the places you’ve lived in affect how you think of yourself? Could you share how living in one place or many places influence your relationship to Sikhi and or your relationship to queerness?

00:20:38 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I’m like having this meta analysis forming, but I don’t know how well I’ll be able to express it. But growing up in San Jose, specifically really close to San Jose Gurdwaara, I was born after it had become an established place. Before it used to be a trailer, like a trailer, in a trailer park. Like behind someone’s house, I don’t even really know, actually. But it was something of that sort. My parents got married in this trailer, but by the time I was sentient, it was this established, huge space. And so I think I didn’t realize at the time that I was living in a place that had a lot of Sikh people and like that it didn’t really feel like we were a minority in that sense. Just like as a really young person I definitely lived in this Sikh bubble of not realizing that like most Gurdwaaras are not that big. You know what I mean? They’re not that established, well funded in that way that San Jose Gurdwaara is the largest Gurdwaara in North America, I think. It’s like a multi-million dollar project, like it’s huge. Thinking of that opulence or— I don’t know— that’s kind of what I’m pondering because you go to different Gurdwaaras and you can see the economic status, the state of it. It’s easy to make that evaluation based on not only the building, but the graphics and… Anyway, that thing you… I’m struggling now to figure out [inaudible] I was going somewhere. Yeah, I kind of lost myself in the way that I expected to.

00:23:22 SPEAKER_MS

No worries at all. I can also re-prompt the question if it would be helpful.

00:23:27 SPEAKER_JS

Yes it would be so helpful.

00:23:30 SPEAKER_MS

To you, how did the places you’ve lived in affect how you think of yourself? Could you share how living in one place or many places influenced your relationship to Sikhi and your relationship to your own queerness?

00:23:48 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, so what I was getting at was, since I was surrounded by so much, like I was immersed in community, I did feel [inaudible] this sense of belonging at a really young age. And so like, I would say the feeling of alienation only really started once I started elementary school and was this hairy Sikh kid with kids who were not as hairy kids ,who were not Sikh, and, and that’s really where I began feeling of not belonging in a space. So growing up, I would say that Gurdwaara was a place where I felt that sense of community and [inaudible]. But, I’d say it’s not like that anymore, but I would like to get there. It’s a two-way street in a sense. Yes, there’s things, like there’s critiques I have of North American Gurdwaaras and there’s also critiques I have of myself in ways that I’m not— yeah, things I also need to, or can have the ability to change, to make myself feel that sense of belonging. Some of that alienation I would say is voluntary.

00:25:48 SPEAKER_MS

If you feel comfortable, would you want to share more about that, in terms of the voluntary aspects?

00:25:56 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I guess, like, we live in a very gendered world. And so that has bled into, you know, every single person’s perception and understanding of life and existence. And so when I choose to de-gender, when I choose to walk into spaces and have this gender-abolition mindset, I’m immediately at odds with everyone else in the room. So I am immediately putting this thing down that is— I don’t mean it to be defensive or I don’t mean it to cause friction, but it just does in its own sense, it does. So that’s what I mean when I say the queerness, you know, embodying the queerness at the Gurdwaara sometimes feels like I’m opting into this violence in a way.

00:27:09 SPEAKER_MS

No, no, thank you. Oh, sorry, you were gonna say something?

00:27:12 SPEAKER_JS

No, no, I’m done. Trust me, I’m done.

00:27:15 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no, no, no, thank you so much. And I guess also, since you were reflecting on growing up as well, and this doesn’t only need to be in the Gurdwaara context, but at large as well, what was it like growing up when— where you did grow up?

00:27:35 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, it was— Growing up where I grew up was— okay, so I’m from Evergreen, so it was deep suburb and it was slow. Like I feel like every day was almost the same. But my parents moved to that area specifically for the schools and were constantly disappointed by grades and like, generally, I wasn’t a well behaved child. Like I do still stand by the fact that I have a love of learning. Again, just didn’t really perform well in the framework, the educational framework that it was at the time. So yeah, growing up, I grew up just like an average suburby-an, you know, but I just feel like I don’t even think about it so it’s hard to to reminisce and feel that feeling of slowness and mundane. Yeah, just that. I’m getting the ick just feeling it. So, yeah.

00:29:19 SPEAKER_MS

No, no, no. Thank you for reflecting, though, and sharing. And kind of on that, how have you made meaningful connections in the areas you have lived, whether it’s in the past or where you are currently? Have there been some communities which-in you have been able to build relationships? And how has this been easier or harder [inaudible]?

00:29:47 SPEAKER_JS

Right, so let me say this. One would assume that one would connect better with the urban queers. This is not always true, for many reasons. My most meaningful friendships are folks who came from the middle of nowhere, where nothing happens, and all they had was their thoughts. You know, I could literally just list out my best friends and all of them grew up in some small city, Central Valley, or the middle of— like I have friends in Iowa— I don’t know, all of my most tender intimate connections with folks are like that. I don’t really know where I’m going with that. It’s just like, I think I share politic with very few people who went to my high school, but the ones that I do, we are so just unbelievably aligned. Like, it’s we reached the same destination through a miracle. So one of my best friends, Noor, is Muslim Pakistani multidisciplinary artist. And we both went to the same 2000 something kid high school. We barely spoke. After high school, we connected again over Instagram, and now they’re just like— there’s nothing that I could, I couldn’t talk about with them and feel like we’re not gonna in some way agree or have a very similar lens. Sorry, could you repeat the question?

00:31:40 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, absolutely. How have you made meaningful connections in the areas you have lived? Have you, have there been some communities in which you have been able to build relationships and how has this been easier or harder based on where you’ve lived?

00:31:55 SPEAKER_JS

Right, right. So like San Jose, I’d say it was really hard because I, at a very young age was like, “Oh, I’m queer.” And some folks were queer but hadn’t gotten there yet, you know, like with their understanding. And also just in a place where people, like parents do move to have their kids go to these really competitive schools, there was a certain— there’s just something in the air, you know, like it made it really competitive, but also everyone’s kind of for themselves. And, you know, people were friends with people if they could get good grades together, or like people were friends with people if they could escape into sexual intimacy with each other— like you know what I mean? Very utilitarian— I don’t know. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, if something didn’t serve a purpose, it wasn’t like, “Oh, let’s just be good friends and [inaudible].” I’m obviously generalizing, I’m sure there’s lots of people who did experience that— I’m just trying to translate the sense that I got growing up there [inaudible] that those meaningful connections in my life. So everything felt performative and— and weird. And so the fact that one of my best friends is from the same high school as me is— it’s pretty mind blowing. So I’m in San Francisco now, and I haven’t made a new friend— like someone from San Francisco, since I moved here. Everyone that I’ve been friends with, I’ve either met on Twitter and then we met when they moved here, or we knew each other before, pre-San Francisco, Jaspreet. So like, I would say you, Noor, I have a really good friend named Bishop who also grew up in the random burbs of the Antelope Valley, who moved here for school and is queer and trans and we really just got on so well and became really great friends. I don’t— living where I live— I don’t have everyday people in my life who are in the same physical space as me, you know? And so I feel that same way, that isolationist. But it’s also— it’s different times, like in ways I’m opting in, like I’m opting into COVID safety, I’m opting into not having friends just to have friends. So for those reasons, I also am a little friendless here.

00:34:49 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And that makes me think about earlier, you mentioned loneliness. So I was just wondering if this has shaped your relationship to loneliness And if you would want to share, whatever you would feel comfortable sharing, on thinking about your relationship to loneliness given that— yeah.

00:35:15 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. Again, I both complain about the loneliness but I also know that the loneliness is something I’m in control of and am wielding, in a sense. Yes, I’m lonely here, and yes, all of these online friendships do nourish me. And they feel reciprocal and meaningful relationships at the same time, it would be great to have people to spend real time with. But I’m just like, I’m not invested in a passiveness, or I just— I can’t really have people in my life for very long when we don’t share like a deep, at least like a somewhat [inaudible] worldview— it’s really hard for me because it feels like there’s just now a wall between us. So for that reason, the loneliness does again feel like something I can be frustrated with, but also recognize in the ways that I’m complicit in my loneliness. And also there’s a reason for it, in the way that I should be lonely at this point of my life, I think. Like in the things that I’m doing, and the things that I’m working on, I just— I don’t know— I feel like maybe— yeah. I don’t know.

00:37:07 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And just before we move to the next set of questions, I kind of wanted to also ask a little bit about something that you touched on earlier as well, which maybe relates to what the topic of loneliness and kind of working, navigating that. And that is the question of the search of community, search for community -slash- the search for Sangat. And I was just wondering, earlier you named being involved in Jakara, for example, as a board member, and the different types of labor you’ve engaged in and pushing certain spaces that don’t serve you or haven’t served you. And I was just wondering if you, how that experience has been of pushing in spaces or how that search for community in the context of violence— ongoing violence has been for you?

00:38:13 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. I almost feel like I disassociate when I’m in those spaces, like I kind of just take whatever happens as— “you know what it is.” And I don’t get angry, I don’t feel an exhaustion— I feel that all hits me in a very delayed manner and I could say I had great time in Sikh Sangat here in San Francisco. Last year, like we did like a games night where I brought my carrom board and chaah [tea] we had like a Sikh Jeopardy. Like it was cute, it was fun, you know, I had a good time. And it’s really— sometimes I appreciate that delay because then I do have good feelings in the moment and I can look back to those and be like, “Oh yeah, that was good.” So, you’re calling back to that. Yeah, being in community and ongoing violence, it’s not something I’m opposed to. Like, I can be in that violence. I don’t feel afraid of it. Or afraid of what it will do to me. I just think, it kind of feels like since us queer Sikh folks can be so spread apart, on a number of issues, sometimes it feels like I’m the only one in the room who cares. And for that reason, it’s like, “Okay, the consensus here is not interested in having this conversation.” And so I shouldn’t even bring it up because it’s gonna go nowhere. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and so I think that’s why sometimes I do, and maybe that’s defeatist of me. Maybe it is.

00:40:30 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for commenting on that and for reflecting on that. Also, Jaspreet, is it okay if I just go pee in two minutes and I’ll be right back?

00:40:39 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah.

00:41:36 SPEAKER_MS

Okay, I am back. Thank you so much for waiting. And now I wanted to transition into thinking about dreams, actually, which are kind of the last set of questions that I have for you. To ask you about desire, especially because another way that people understand themselves is by thinking about what they desire in life to help them understand themselves better. These can be the types of the desires as in the types of relationships people build or wish to build, or who they are close with and what type of futures they see. So I wanted to see what you think desire is and how you think desire is maybe different from intimacy or even dreaming?

00:42:24 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I always really struggle with this. You and I were talking earlier, but I think the more I immerse myself in Sikhi, the less I know what I want, and I know just what is the collective— like what are the collective needs, or that’s what I begin to center. And I think in some ways, I know myself less because I’m not really making time to dream about my own personal aspirations as much as I am yearning for this oneness or wholeness. So I always struggle when people are like, “what do you want, or like, apple juice or orange juice?” I just like— “Same thing. It’s juice.” Like, I feel like I’m not a preferential person or I’m not so much preferential as I was before. So I’d say that’s how I see my relationship with dreaming and desires— not to be said that I don’t have any desires or I don’t have any dreams. It just feels grayer, I don’t know.

00:43:53 SPEAKER_MS

Yeah, no, absolutely. No, thank you so much. And I would love to hear, if you feel comfortable, what are those hopes and dreams and umeedaan [hopes] for yourself as well as for the different communities that you identify with?

00:44:07 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah. I want to feel settled, not only in my body and my mind, but in a space. I was displaced last year and I’ve just— I’ve been living with some nice folks, but it also feels— like it doesn’t feel like home. I feel like that’s one of my big dreams right now. I’m just constantly thinking about what home means, but also how I can get myself to a place that is decently priced housing. And I don’t know if that was on prompt but I have been thinking about that. And then for my community, I just want us to go back to love. It feels like there’s so many divisive— ideas in our Sikh Sangat, or in our Sikh community. I guess, especially online. And people romanticizing Andrew Tate, for example. How many mental backflips do you have to do to consider yourself Sikh and a fan of Andrew Tate? Like I just can’t— I can’t fathom it. But I do dream of this, people going back— people being able to connect to this pre-colonial Sikhi, this de-gendered Sikhi, this Sikhi that, as you said with brilliant words, “difference without separability,” without this superiority complex, without the caste affiliations, there’s just so many things. So I do dream of that often, of the Sikhi that I know and love, but also witnessing other folks— what they call Sikhi. You know, I’m not gonna say it’s not Sikhi, it’s their Sikhi. And so, yeah, that’s what I would say I dream about.

00:46:40 SPEAKER_MS

No, thank you for sharing those very beautiful and sacred dreams. And I agree Denise Ferreira da Silva’s quote, “difference without separability” is something that I also continue to sit with as well.

00:46:54 SPEAKER_JS

Sorry, I thought you said it.

00:46:57 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no, no, it’s not. It’s by a really well-known Black feminist scholar, Denise Ferreira da Silva. But I would love to hear, kind of on reflecting about dreams and hopes and our umeedaan, how have you found healing and nourishment with respect to your identities? And what does healing even feel like to you in your own mind, spirit, body? What does it feel like to be nourished in your mind, spirit, and body? So at large, sitting with how you found healing and nourishment and how that feels like for you.

00:47:37 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah I think in regards to my spiritual practice, not striving for perfection, because some days I am gonna wake up and not pray and some days I’m going to just not be— like I’m not gonna embody everything that I want to embody. And I think for a long time that kept me from engaging with Sikhi in any capacity because I felt dirty and unclean and not worthy of sitting down and just doing it. And I think that’s so against the fundamentals that, you know. Once you refresh yourself on what it’s supposed to be, it’s like, “Oh yeah, wait, no, I can do this and I’m allowed to do this.” So yeah, giving myself that grace of, “Oh yeah, I’m able to do this and no one can stop me.” So I think that that’s definitely been nourishing and it’s extended to so many different parts of my life. Like just the stam of once I was able to reconnect with Sikhi in that regard, I’ve let go of a lot of the perfectionism in my life because, you know it bleeds right into all aspects of the self when you when you explore spirituality. So yeah.

00:49:25 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much. And also, since you just mentioned reconnecting with Sikhi, I just wanted to ask how the process of reconnecting with Sikhi has been, what led you away from, and what has been— I know it also is a constant cycle as well. That last time, in the last interview, we talked about the different phases and the different chapters, but if you want to, to share— if you feel comfortable sharing about what that recent reconnection process has been and where, how you evolved to be where you’re currently at and where you’re working to move forward to.

00:50:07 SPEAKER_JS

Right. So in this world of -isms that— I don’t know if it’s innate, or if it’s a socialized thing, but it almost feels like we need some type of cultural or religious identifier to feel affiliated with, both for that sense of belonging, but also so that we have this rulebook of this is how you need to live life. And if you go outside of these bounds, you’re not doing it right. And so being raised in Sikhi, it felt accessible. But also, I’m a philosophy and religion major and I’ve read about a lot of different faiths and I still feel most aligned with Sikhi. I think because of how integrative it is. Action, politic, ethics, as you said earlier, its’ goal is almost to cultivate this innate divinity, you know, as we strive to become Guru-like. So I think what drew me away was not really seeing that Sikhi embodied. But also some of it was probably shame of being ethnic and just wanting to conform to certain standards that don’t really align with Sikhi, and striving for things Sikhi considers to be distractions. And so to validate that, I had to be like, “Oh, well, this isn’t for me.” So coming back to it is this newness. And we kind of talked about it, I think, last time of this new phase in my life where I have been able to explore my gender. And I think like I said before, that has been so deeply intertwined with my reconnection with Sikhi.

00:52:46 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for sharing that. And that concludes the questions that I had for you, but I wanted to also create space to see if there were any questions that I hadn’t asked or if there’s anything you did wanna share or add or to also be included within the archive as we attempt to kind of snapshot this moment in time for where you’re at.

00:53:12 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I actually do want to share something And I’m gonna share it so that maybe future me can be like, “Wait, where did this go?” So next Sunday, I’m doing my first get-together. It’s masked. It’s no-substances. It’s drawing, mehndi [henna], carrom board. And it feels like something new. Like, it’s really new for me. But I’m trying to take myself out of that loneliness that I have been talking about so much, through a Sikh lens and also so like— yeah that’s what I’m thinking about, it’s something I would like to archive that for me.

00:54:01 SPEAKER_MS

Thank you so much for sharing that and for the very beautiful search for Sangat that you are on, that this next chapter holds for you. I also kind of, I know this question about what are some hopes and umeedaan for yourself was a question that I’ve already asked earlier, but since you do touch on the hosting era that you’re on, I would love to kind of also ask another final questio— where do you see yourself going from here?

00:54:46 SPEAKER_JS

Oh, That’s a scary question. But I think from here, you and I are working on something and I’m trying to have more of that mindset of “If it’s not there for me, I can just make it myself.” And so I see myself in that crafted community that we are planting the seeds for right now, is where I see myself.

00:55:27 SPEAKER_MS

Wow, thank you so much. That was really, really beautiful. And I’m just reveling in the love, the care, and the abundance of the garden that is to come, of which the seeds you are planting already. On a very final question, I keep saying I’m asking the final question and keep popping more. This is a question I already had asked you in the pre-interview, but especially as someone who’s now gone through the interview, just wanted to also ask, what do you hope comes out of sharing your life story with us?

00:56:04 SPEAKER_JS

Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing, and I don’t know if this is selfish, but the first thing that popped into my head I think when I heard about this project was, “Oh my god, teenage me would have gagged, like teenage me would have really sat down in bed and just like sobbed hearing all of these stories.” And so yeah, that’s what I think about is just how awesome it is that now all of these stories are in one place to be cherished. And since it’s so diverse, everyone can find something to connect to it, and so it’s not this monolith of, “I am the one queer trans Sikh person, and this is my story.” So I’m also just really excited to hear everyone else’s and feel all of the things.

00:57:15 SPEAKER_MS

Oh, no, thank you so much. And thank you for all of your time, for all of your divinity, for gracing us with that and for being vulnerable, for taking your time out to share with us. That concludes the interview for today. I will stop recording.